Author Topic: Colonial Master!  (Read 8867 times)

Chenier

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #30: November 07, 2018, 12:50:44 AM »
Do you not understand that perception of a threat can be just as effective at shutting down action as a real threat?

Regarding this point specifically, yes I would agree, but I would counter that with the fact that BT was never stagnant for any significant amount of time, and thus would cast into doubt the correlation between realm size and stagnancy, because there are many other things that can shut down action, and indeed that *have* shut down action, creating stagnation in places that don't have any realm with any scope comparable to what Enweil had.
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #31: November 07, 2018, 03:17:29 AM »
I fully remember the iron lock that Enweil once held in the diplomacy of Beluaterra.  No one dared do anything if they thought Enweil would not approve.  And when Enweil marched, entire alliances trembled.  And Enweil could decapitate and destroy entire realms with a single campaign lasting a matter of days.  I remember well the sudden fall of Fowagher.  (sp)

It reminds me very much of the iron lock the Cagilan Empire and Tara once held over Atamara.  Between those two and their Federated compatriots, they held something like half the continent and had locked it in a web of alliances that made warfare all but impossible.  After all, who could do anything when the top four nations in the world could simply curbstomp them?  Not that we were really that powerful towards the end you understand.  The rot of nothing interesting to do had set in and even maintaining noble lords was hard due to the falling noble count.  And this was when we could still have two nobles.  Tara for instance couldn't send out a 10k armor when I became ruler.  We would have lost pretty much any war with any of our border realms back then.  It took me months and a good general to bring the army around again to be able to do something, but even then it wasn't powerful enough to break a tough city with a major militia presence.  Remember...in the two noble time period with months of preparation...we couldn't do that.

Breaking the Cagilan/Taran alliance was probably the hardest thing we players did.  And honestly, the Cagilan/Taran alliance had done what was supposed to be impossible.  We WON the game of BattleMaster.  Over a period of years, we broke every nation that fought us, turned more into federated partners and alliances, and bent an entire continent to our will.  It was amazing.  And it was devastating to the game.  We had to end it to breathe life back into the continent.  The continent WAS dying even for those of us on the top.  And those on the bottom were probably at least as frustrated as non-Enweilians were in the era of Enweil on BT.  So we as players made the OOC decision to break the alliance, put together some IC reasons to do it, and sparked the biggest war seen on that continent in years.

The death of the Cagilan/Taran alliance was as good for Atamara as the death of Enweil was for Beluaterra.  It's a shame we never got to see how things worked out for Atamara after all that work...but...such is life.  We don't always get what we want.  *shrugs*

Zakky

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #32: November 07, 2018, 03:32:56 AM »
I'd say that isn't really the problem caused by large realms at least on AT. On AT, a problem rose when a large realm like CE and Tara became federated allies. And more realms joined over time. Can't do anything when the center of the map is owned by a giant federation when the game doens't allow you to travel too far. Can't meet your allies across the map etc.

I think what the game needs is reducing the effectiveness of having a giant alliance. One giant single realm can't fight a multiple realm alliance unless the alliance is poorly organized (which usually is the case with so many generals having different ideas).

De-Legro

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #33: November 07, 2018, 03:36:49 AM »
I'd say that isn't really the problem caused by large realms at least on AT. On AT, a problem rose when a large realm like CE and Tara became federated allies. And more realms joined over time. Can't do anything when the center of the map is owned by a giant federation when the game doens't allow you to travel too far. Can't meet your allies across the map etc.

I think what the game needs is reducing the effectiveness of having a giant alliance. One giant single realm can't fight a multiple realm alliance unless the alliance is poorly organized (which usually is the case with so many generals having different ideas).

The Federation though showed what might be possible for a single realm to achieve if there were not systems in place that restrict the size a realm is theoretically able to grow to. It was for all intents and purpose a single realm.
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Zakky

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #34: November 07, 2018, 05:08:50 AM »
The Federation though showed what might be possible for a single realm to achieve if there were not systems in place that restrict the size a realm is theoretically able to grow to. It was for all intents and purpose a single realm.

Hmm I see it differently. With BM's system, you can only have one place to recruit troops from.

What the federation achieved was what happens when you allow multiple places to recruit from in a single giant realm.

Ketchum

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #35: November 07, 2018, 10:20:30 AM »
Even with distance in place, on Colonies island, Lukon(include current Portion lands), Oritolon and Outer Tilog basically rule over the island. We understood that better than Tom reset whole Colonies island, we players reset ourselves pretty much.

Then the Colonial Senate stuff happen where we:

-create a few new realms(one realm one city)
-giving Assassins realm monopoly over infiltrators(While trying so hard not to break game rule where you cannot force people to change to other classes from infiltrators. As Oritolon Ruler at that time I even allowed an infiltrator by the name of Himoura who likes to play infiltrators so much, he ended up visit all Assassins realm infiltrators and wounded them all. Good times)

Colonies island has long distance war going on between Aren/Halycon/Oritolon versus Outer Tilog/Giblot. As current Army Marshal of Oritolon, I can attest that I did not even use Mercenary setting as we go from Oritolon city down central south all the way to Outer Tilog lands(Hilly Holes?) to fight battles.

As I understand this request, so next time Oritolon army can travel all the way to Giblot city, maybe plunder the northland of Outer Tilog lands while troop leaders pay little to no gold for not-even-Mercenary setting? Do please correct me if I am wrong.
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Chenier

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #36: November 07, 2018, 01:56:17 PM »
I fully remember the iron lock that Enweil once held in the diplomacy of Beluaterra.  No one dared do anything if they thought Enweil would not approve.  And when Enweil marched, entire alliances trembled.  And Enweil could decapitate and destroy entire realms with a single campaign lasting a matter of days.  I remember well the sudden fall of Fowagher.  (sp)

It reminds me very much of the iron lock the Cagilan Empire and Tara once held over Atamara.  Between those two and their Federated compatriots, they held something like half the continent and had locked it in a web of alliances that made warfare all but impossible.  After all, who could do anything when the top four nations in the world could simply curbstomp them?  Not that we were really that powerful towards the end you understand.  The rot of nothing interesting to do had set in and even maintaining noble lords was hard due to the falling noble count.  And this was when we could still have two nobles.  Tara for instance couldn't send out a 10k armor when I became ruler.  We would have lost pretty much any war with any of our border realms back then.  It took me months and a good general to bring the army around again to be able to do something, but even then it wasn't powerful enough to break a tough city with a major militia presence.  Remember...in the two noble time period with months of preparation...we couldn't do that.

Breaking the Cagilan/Taran alliance was probably the hardest thing we players did.  And honestly, the Cagilan/Taran alliance had done what was supposed to be impossible.  We WON the game of BattleMaster.  Over a period of years, we broke every nation that fought us, turned more into federated partners and alliances, and bent an entire continent to our will.  It was amazing.  And it was devastating to the game.  We had to end it to breathe life back into the continent.  The continent WAS dying even for those of us on the top.  And those on the bottom were probably at least as frustrated as non-Enweilians were in the era of Enweil on BT.  So we as players made the OOC decision to break the alliance, put together some IC reasons to do it, and sparked the biggest war seen on that continent in years.

The death of the Cagilan/Taran alliance was as good for Atamara as the death of Enweil was for Beluaterra.  It's a shame we never got to see how things worked out for Atamara after all that work...but...such is life.  We don't always get what we want.  *shrugs*

The death of Enweil was pretty much the death of PvP on BT. That said, Enweil was dead long before it was removed from the map.

The fall of Republic of Fwuvoghor, in 2008? Don't forget that:

1) Republic of Fwuvoghor had used daimons against Enweil's ally, Avalon
2) Republic of Fwuvoghor was created from a secession from Enweil
3) Republic of Fwuvoghor was clearly aligning itself with anti-Enweil realms
4) It took a huge amount of lobbying by RoF's former ruler, now in Enweil, to march on them
5) Fwuvoghor quickly died because Enweil and Riombara's armies arrived at the same time, but Riombara had been a dumbass about diplomacy and hadn't declared war on Enweil (and maybe wasn't allied to RoF). So Enweil got to start the TO without a major battle. Had RoF+Rio had the walls, it would probably have taken much longer to annex Fwuvoghor.

Now, I can't speak for pre-2006 days, when Enweil had allies like Luz de Bia, Plergoth, Mesh, Avalon, etc. But LdB was quickly replaced by Alluran, which was hostile. Mesh turned hostile to Enweil. Avalon was rarely meaningful for the time it lived. Plergoth got replaced by hostile realms.

Other than for the siege on undefended Fwuvoghor, I can only recall one siege on a city, Rines I think, which took the perfect storm to pull off, and a number of allies (contributions from Avalon and Iro, I think).

So, please, define the "Era of Enweil". Because if it was, like, 2004. Then, maybe, but I wasn't there back then, and it clearly didn't last. CE/Tara federation was nothing like Enweil. Enweil never* (from late 2006 forward) rallied the whole continent  to them, or told others to be at peace or suffer the consequences. And even when it was a powerhouse, in those years before I joined, it did stuff like march to Melhed to reform their government system, NOT impose the creation of a grand federation.

Because to claim that Enweil was stifling is to claim that BT was stifled. But BT was non-stop war, between the invasions. Having a scary big neighbor is not, in itself, "stifling". Because otherwise, why don't we just give every realm on BM exactly the same economy and mobile army? That logic would suggest that inequalities are stifling.

But that's not the reality. The inequality pushes the "underdog" to (over)compensate. On BT, on Dwi, elsewhere. Maybe Rio got a few letters now and then from cowardly rulers. But the fact remains that they still rallied a 6 realm coalition against them at one point. And that's without counting the smaller coalitions mounted at almost all other times. And that Enweil killed none of these realms. The only realm Enweil killed, from 2006 to... 2013 I think? Was RoF. And that wasn't really a war as much of an annexation. Declared war, walked in, started the takeover of the capital, won. Just as Enweil declared none of these other wars.

And other than for jealousy, Enweil also spurred action in many other aspects. By housing in a number of active blood cultists, it probably helped drive a lot of hostility towards them, and thus action and war. The Imperial Raiders of Ete, Enweil's third army, participated in a lot of religious warfare with daishist Hetland and hemaist Sint, notably, during those wars. It also served to consolidate relations with the new Fronen, which was also another war-torn state, in some senses a proxy for the northern theater.

Enweil was the driving force of action on BT, and much of what happened on BT revolved around it, but that's the opposite of stifling. BT was the most active and thriving continent. Some of that thanks to the invasions, no doubt, that helped kill many realms and keep things fresh every era.

While the idea of small localized wars is appealing, truth it, it seems more like an idealistic fantasy. Those are rare. Not because players are bad, but because they are incredibly impractical. A realm with 5k mobile forces fighting another realm with 5k mobile forces... isn't going to achieve much. Large realms have been the source of much more conflict and action, both by their direct actions, and passively by inciting others to band against them.
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Vita`

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #37: November 07, 2018, 04:56:58 PM »
And honestly, the Cagilan/Taran alliance had done what was supposed to be impossible.  We WON the game of BattleMaster.
Wow. The point has never been that's it's impossible to win BattleMaster. The point is that winning Battlemaster is not the point of the game. No one has won Battlemaster because that's not what the game is about and never has been. Claims otherwise demonstrate just how much one misunderstands the game. If it's possible to 'win', then more limits need added to prevent these players from achieving WHAT SHOULD NEVER BE PURSUED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

How much did anyone win when the hegemonic superpowers reduced conflict, crushed people's fun atmospheres just because they could, and drove players from the game in boredom and exasperation?

Chenier

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #38: November 07, 2018, 05:13:37 PM »
From my understanding the CE/Tara alliance was terrible for AT. But I stand by the statement that they are but one example of large, and probably one of the only ones to have results of that kind. Even the other successful nations, like Arcaea... I don't think anyone else really managed to gridlock their continents and force peace. I remember loathing EC and it having many political problems, but I'm not overly familiar with its history. It seems to have had war for most of its history, though, even if it was maybe a repetitive one.

I don't think re-toggling the possibility for larger nations, at at least what they were before, would decrease warfare or fun. I think the opposite, actually. Keep the density limits on lordships, with the hinterlands coming in to yield a 50% gold income (like estateless regions) and no infrastructure bonus (can't recruit scouts, doesn't provide recruits, etc.), and then the trend would be for fewer, larger realms, where there is more competition for titles, more incentives for border disputes, and greater means to wage actual wars.

Dwi and BT could have great benefits from this. EC, I wouldn't expect any changes in the short term. Colonies either, but I'm less familiar with it.
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feyeleanor

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #39: November 10, 2018, 01:21:03 PM »
I also believe that the excess spawning of rogues was also set into place to encourage this same density and interaction.
From what I have seen, the excess spawning of monsters has had the opposite effect.  It has broken apart realms into smaller areas leaving little chance for interaction between realms.  One can not leave their realm undefended so that they can travel through many rogue occupied regions with their entire army to either assist their allies or to wage war on their enemies.  The goals of the devs may be laudable, but the path they follow to obtain those goals is, in my opinion, questionable.

It's certainly had that effect on Ar Agyr. We went from being a realm which regularly engaged across the continent and was developing an active maritime culture to one that's now hobbled to the regions bordering our capital because of the constant onslaught of rogues. We have 11 nobles, 8 adventurers, 4 regions, and a major monster migration route right in the heart of them.

I'm thankful that the majority of our players have stuck with the realm under these conditions because it's not clear to me this situation is fun for anyone (I'm notoriously stubborn about keeping realms alive but even I don't enjoy fighting the same battles every turn with only an occasional sense of progress).

Medron Pryde

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #40: November 13, 2018, 05:12:31 PM »
I fully agree that the "win" the Cagil/Tara Alliance had on BattleMaster was not good for the continent.

And the players agreed in the end.

That's why we broke it up.  :)

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #41: November 13, 2018, 05:18:13 PM »
But, see, what would have been good for BattleMaster...

is if you had not spent several RL years pursuing and consolidating it in the first place, destroying the fun on the continent (and leading very, very directly to its sinking) just so you could put a little feather in your Internet cap and say "I won!"
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Chenier

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #42: November 14, 2018, 12:35:45 AM »
But, see, what would have been good for BattleMaster...

is if you had not spent several RL years pursuing and consolidating it in the first place, destroying the fun on the continent (and leading very, very directly to its sinking) just so you could put a little feather in your Internet cap and say "I won!"

Maybe it should have been treated like war islands? Win, get reset?  :P

The thrill of colonization, like with early Dwi, does miss me.
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #43: November 14, 2018, 07:04:18 PM »
I wasn't there for a long time.

That said, I don't blame any players for trying to win.  I think the players of Cagil and Tara did an awesome job of conquering the center of Atamara and tying up the rest of it in alliances.  It was a fun game for them to play and they played it very well.  Then there was nothing to do and players started to hemorrhage from the continent.

That was when I stepped up to become Tyrant, looked around with the eyes of a realm leader for the first time, and realized....well...this sucks.  We're going to have fix this somehow.  And other realm leaders were thinking the same thing, and we started working together to break the Cagil/Tara alliance and start up the biggest war in a very long time.

To reiterate.  I don't blame the players for playing the game the best they could.  I may wish they had figured out how to fix it after they realized things were broken, but if we're being honest that's not what I EXPECT from players.  But a new generation of leaders did manage to work with the remaining old school leaders to break it up after everybody realized something had to be done.  We did it.  I'm proud of the fact that we did it.  :)

Zakky

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Re: Colonial Master!
« Reply #44: November 14, 2018, 07:43:50 PM »
I think Cagil and Tara did great actually. At least half of the continent had fun unlike now where not even half enjoys the current state. I would take Cagil and Tara over what we have now to be honest. This is coming from a person who was on the receiving end of Cagil and Tara. I still remember days of Abington and Falasan because of Cagil.