Author Topic: Special Forces  (Read 4565 times)

Chenier

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Special Forces
« Topic Start: November 04, 2018, 03:45:36 PM »
After a few talks on discord, and stumbling upon some old forum posts... I've been digging into SF, and wandering about others' opinion of them, and how they work.

So, basically, SF are like MI, right? Same behavior code, I believe? Though presumably better?

First, a look at range. Range has zero impact on recruiting costs. Melee SF, R4 SF, R5 SF, all the same. Basically, the formula for recruitment cost seems pretty simple. (Weapon+Armour+Training)*0,45 = gold per 10 men. For archers, inf, and possibly MI, that looks rather like 0,25. In other words, SF are nearly twice as expensive per man as "standard" types.

But are R0 as (in)effective in melee as R5 ones are? Are they still essentially better MI, or are R0 treated as better inf? Because if they are exactly the same as ranged SF, but with no range... and they cost the same... that's pretty terrible. Garbage even. I bet if players knew this, many would do a few things quite differently.

Regarding recruitment limits, SF seem to be about 1/3 of standard (inf/archer/MI) types. Recruiting 100 SF at 90 gpt (gold per ten) would cost 900 gold, while recruiting 300 archers at 50 gpt would cost 1500 gold, for example (if your honor is somewhere in the 800 range or so). Maxing out on SF would therefore cost less than maxing out on archers, for units of the same w/a/t values.

How much CS would a 100 men 90gpt SF unit have, as opposed to a 300 men 50gpt archer unit have? I don't know... that data is a bit less available, harder to compile and extrapolate from. You can't see what others have as w/a/t values, and people often mix unit sources, so it's then hard to extrapolate from the recruiting costs. Also further obfuscated by the fact that large units get a debuff to CS/man, which may or may not be modulated by type (I'd assume it isn't?). If anyone has data, I'll take it. Otherwise I'll try to collect some in the weeks to come.

So for now, the following question remains unanswered: for the same equipment values, will you  get more CS from maxing out on archers, or on SF?

But that also props up another question: is that CS value really representative?

In an old forum post, I saw someone claim that SF will typically deal about twice as many hits as a comparable standard unit. However, they would still lose as many men/hit as the other things. In other words, glass canons. Are they really worth twice the cost per man if only their attack is doubled, but not their defense?

Depending on all these answers, what should one conclude? Is ranged SF worth it? Is melee SF utter garbage? Looking forward to your input!  ;D
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Logar

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #1: November 04, 2018, 04:02:11 PM »
I haven't investigated very deep with diferences between SF and other unit types, so cannot answer most of your questions.

What I think I have noticed though and use it a a general rule of thumb:
In the long term SF are more economical for your gold purse? More expensive to purchase, but less in weekly pay. Generally you could say that 30 ranged SF in CS is equivalent roughly to 50 archers in CS. If that it the case then SF is good for a knight who has a low weekly income (if you can put up the initial cost of hiring). Happy to be corrected on this if I am wrong.

I am interested to hear more on this thread though.
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Chenier

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #2: November 04, 2018, 04:04:47 PM »
I haven't investigated very deep with diferences between SF and other unit types, so cannot answer most of your questions.

What I think I have noticed though and use it a a general rule of thumb:
In the long term SF are more economical for your gold purse? More expensive to purchase, but less in weekly pay. Generally you could say that 30 ranged SF in CS is equivalent roughly to 50 archers in CS. If that it the case then SF is good for a knight who has a low weekly income (if you can put up the initial cost of hiring). Happy to be corrected on this if I am wrong.

I am interested to hear more on this thread though.

Hmm, salaries is another point worth investigating.
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Nosferatus

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #3: November 04, 2018, 07:33:16 PM »
I remember SF to have one thing no other type of unit has: a special skill. (hence Special Forces).
Every SF center difers from each other in this special skill, which can be something like a boost in scaling walls, defending or attacking, traveling, morale etc.
Vita or anaris should be able to confirm or deny this and also be able to specify what kind of skills are possible if i am correct here.
They are not visible and have to be discovered by trying these units out.
Unfortunately if anyone ever discovers it it is forgotten just as easy as it is difficult to figure it out :D
A small description box for each RC could permanently solve this and also add the opportunity for giving otherr(normal) RC's more character.
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Chenier

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #4: November 04, 2018, 08:15:23 PM »
https://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,397.msg9042.html

Anaris' and ban's comments on that thread, if you read between the lines, seems to strongly suggest that special forces never had any abilities. Vita's more recent comments (on discord?) also seemed to heavily imply it.
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BarticaBoat

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #5: November 04, 2018, 08:52:32 PM »
If I recall, SF are buffed regular types. I remember using melee SF and they were... Melee. I think one or two realms snagged cavalry SF. The whole ranged thing happened because ranged was so much more dominant for years. It's like MI before, it had a use but no one could be bothered to try. Melee SF have a use as well.

I think the special ability was that some SF have defensive buffs? There could be either offensive or defensive.

I could also be remembering totally wrong.

feyeleanor

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #6: November 05, 2018, 10:36:28 AM »
I've extensive experience with Ranged SF (about 7 years) both as units and as militia. They're now my preferred militia if I have walls to defend.

Long ago there were definitely special abilities but I've never tracked whether any of my units have had them or what they may be (I try to play without crunching too many stats). The idea that these should only be discovered in combat has always struck me as odd - surely the trainers at the RC should know what kind of training they're providing? Letting the region owner see this information would make more sense and I'm not sure there'd be any great harm in not listing it in the recruitment page.

IME Ranged SF fight better than equivalent infantry in melee and better than equivalent archers at range. A few time I've used them in melee in skirmish formation and not been too disappointed whereas I'd expect MI or archers to be entirely useless at that point. I've not used Melee SF on their own in several years as if I'm recruiting them it's usually for an existing unit with limited recruitment options at that time. From what I recall they punch hard but their casualty rates tend to be as bad as with equivalent infantry or cavalry which makes them a costly option both in gold and time between recruitment cycles.

Overall I'd say SF work best for characters with high honour who want to pack a reasonable punch in battle but still move fast or as militia garrisons for fortified positions. They also add a nice RP touch to the game.

Lefanis

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #7: November 05, 2018, 11:21:24 AM »
SF and the 17 year old quest to find the elusive centre bypassing walls... probably one of the biggest red herrings in the game... There are only two "special" abilities that are actually observable, for which we have some data and actual proof. Ranged SF, pretty much jacked up MI- R5 being the best example, and just regular melee SF, which looks like infantry with a RNG modifier to sometimes provide extra hits. There is no magical unit that scales walls, or other insane stuff. If there was, we would have battle reports adorning the wiki about it.
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Chenier

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #8: November 05, 2018, 01:38:36 PM »
SF and the 17 year old quest to find the elusive centre bypassing walls... probably one of the biggest red herrings in the game... There are only two "special" abilities that are actually observable, for which we have some data and actual proof. Ranged SF, pretty much jacked up MI- R5 being the best example, and just regular melee SF, which looks like infantry with a RNG modifier to sometimes provide extra hits. There is no magical unit that scales walls, or other insane stuff. If there was, we would have battle reports adorning the wiki about it.

But are melee SF really more like infantry, or more like R0 MI?

Because let's recall, all stats being the same, R0, R1, and R5 SF all cost exactly the same to recruit. And in salaries.

The distinction is important. Because if R0 are more like inf, that means that they are probably much, much better than R5 SF in melee. But from the data I've got so far, I don't think that is the case. I think R0 SF are exactly as good (or bad?) as R5 SF in melee, the only difference is that they are melee-obligate.

Who would recruit R0 MI? With that in mind, why would anyone want R0 SF?

Also, looking into salaries... it looks like equipment quality has next to zero impact on them. + or - 1 gpw on a 100 men unit, according to the equipment. Unit type and training is the real determining factor. A 100 men unit with 100 training will cost from 222 to 224 gold, depending on equip.

What's missing now is battle reports of melee and ranged SF, accompanied with the stats of those SF...
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feyeleanor

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #9: November 06, 2018, 11:49:26 AM »
What's missing now is battle reports of melee and ranged SF, accompanied with the stats of those SF...

You can find some of those in the older Dubhaine wiki pages but I stopped recording battle reports around April 2013 as I was ultra busy IRL. It wasn't long after that that I cut down to only playing Cathal on the Colonies and essentially played for 2 years exclusively fielding Special Forces. You may find some Colonial players - especially from OT - who have battle reports you can correlate with Cathal's unit stats history if you're interested in crunching the numbers yourself but it'll be a very rough estimate as I don't update stats on every change so as to keep a random factor in there.

Chenier

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #10: November 06, 2018, 01:19:06 PM »
What might come in handy are Zakky's new perfect SF unit.
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BarticaBoat

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #11: November 15, 2018, 02:46:09 AM »
SF are not MI because MI used to be bugged and very difficult to use: SF never had that problem. SF are, as I recall, buffed regular types.

Anaris

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #12: November 15, 2018, 02:46:52 AM »
No...MI are MI. Infantry are Infantry. Archers are Archers. SF are SF.

Why do they have to be "buffed" versions of something else...?
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Chenier

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #13: November 15, 2018, 02:58:17 AM »
Well, I mean, there's not that many variables to play around with...

Unit speed/charge, unit range, does unit get panicked in melee, and now does it get the armor bonus?

The rest isn't really specific/distinctive.
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De-Legro

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Re: Special Forces
« Reply #14: November 26, 2018, 10:47:14 AM »
Well, I mean, there's not that many variables to play around with...

Unit speed/charge, unit range, does unit get panicked in melee, and now does it get the armor bonus?

The rest isn't really specific/distinctive.

so far as you are aware :)
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