New intermediate caste: aristocrats

[Gordy77]

I know it's probably never going to happen, but this could be a good thing for every new player. You start with a squire/ junior noble with limited responsibility, under the tutelage of more experienced player. Once they've got the hang of it ( and you're sure they are going to stay around), you give them your recommendation and they get elevated.

[De-Legro]

Concerning the aristocrat subclasses, I mean, that's an option to go the extra mile, really. If we just enabled the standard subclasses, plus a religious one (which I really think the game has been lacking anyways), then it would still have a similar effect. Aristocrat/Diplomat, Aristocrat/Trader, for example. The aristocrat class itself could be largely a courtier class clone, plus the extra restrictions. I'll leave those with more knowledge of the game's code to think of ways to recycle stuff and cut down the workload required to achieve the desired objectives, which is to find a compromise between the desire for many players to have 2 characters again, and the drawbacks that this used to have.

De-Legro, if a realm would need to have people dedicate a second character to be practical, then that would be because the game *already* does, but just didn't grant people the means to do anything about it. I'm not asking for extra maintenance work and debuffs to be imposed upon the realms so as to give these characters something to do. Rather, the point is to give players more options to tackle the needs already present in the game, without having to completely remove themselves from the main aspects of it.

The problem with clones, imo, was never that they were friendly with their main character. This game is set in a feudal society, after all, family was important. Rather, it was that these characters were eerie, in a roleplaying sense. Consistently inconsistent. And most of all, when something happened to the "main" character (wound, death, capture, etc.), these guys would just pick things up where the other guy left off. This was both bad for immersion and for making these mechanics meaningful.

Allowing a second noble that must belong to the same realm addresses none of that. However, adding a new class of characters that's excluded from realm chat and titles, THAT bypasses those issues completely.

Then fix the game to not require two characters rather then come up with new way to bypass the change regarding character limits. If all we are doing is creating pointless characters that exist so we have the correct buttons to push, we are wasting time both for the devs and for the players spending time just to push those buttons. Changes should be about driving more interaction in the game not just creating methods to push buttons we once pressed. Fix the buttons.

[Chenier]

Then fix the game to not require two characters rather then come up with new way to bypass the change regarding character limits. If all we are doing is creating pointless characters that exist so we have the correct buttons to push, we are wasting time both for the devs and for the players spending time just to push those buttons. Changes should be about driving more interaction in the game not just creating methods to push buttons we once pressed. Fix the buttons.

If some people don't want to push buttons, maybe they are playing the wrong game?

BattleMaster was the "button pushing" version of SpellMaster. BattleMaster is still around. SpellMaster died. Many times. Mechanics are a core element of this game, not "a necessary evil".

Players chose to have more characters, they weren't forced to. You weren't pressured to, either. I never saw anyone go "that guy only has ONE character in our realm, screw him!".

So if by "fixing the buttons" you mean "remove player agency by making everything automatic", then no, I don't see that as a solution.

[De-Legro]

If some people don't want to push buttons, maybe they are playing the wrong game?

BattleMaster was the "button pushing" version of SpellMaster. BattleMaster is still around. SpellMaster died. Many times. Mechanics are a core element of this game, not "a necessary evil".

Players chose to have more characters, they weren't forced to. You weren't pressured to, either. I never saw anyone go "that guy only has ONE character in our realm, screw him!".

So if by "fixing the buttons" you mean "remove player agency by making everything automatic", then no, I don't see that as a solution.

Fixing the buttons can be as easy as making buttons that don't rely on a 2nd character. If I meant remove the buttons and the mechanics I would have said remove them, not fix them. We have constantly looked to change mechanics in response to lowering player numbers, modifying mechanics to avoid the need to inflate density via 2nd characters is no different.

Buttons are fine, characters need buttons. But characters that exist only to press buttons is not in my opinion good or desirable. Mind you that might be because I play M&F where 90% of characters exist only to cope with M&F's own version of this problem.

[Chenier]

Fixing the buttons can be as easy as making buttons that don't rely on a 2nd character. If I meant remove the buttons and the mechanics I would have said remove them, not fix them. We have constantly looked to change mechanics in response to lowering player numbers, modifying mechanics to avoid the need to inflate density via 2nd characters is no different.

Buttons are fine, characters need buttons. But characters that exist only to press buttons is not in my opinion good or desirable. Mind you that might be because I play M&F where 90% of characters exist only to cope with M&F's own version of this problem.

Except that this doesn't address the problem of lowering player numbers, it's a problem of reduced character limits. It's not about "we have less players, how can we compensate?", but about "we can't involve ourselves into our realms as we once could, how could we try to return to that while addressing the underlying issues that led to it being removed?"