Author Topic: The State of Beluaterra: Time for an Invasion?  (Read 5513 times)

Abstract

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The State of Beluaterra: Time for an Invasion?
« Topic Start: December 24, 2018, 07:57:24 AM »
On discord there was some discussion on the topic of invasion for Beluaterra. So I've taken a closer look at the topic and have come to my own conclusion. It is a bit long but if you are just interested in my conclusion then: an invasion, or something like it, could be great but leaving the realms to their own devices could work as well. Essentially, an invasion to force realms into a certain area could be a fun way to artificially decrease the island size. If the two large southern realms don't want to partake then the north can still be good if the realms head towards each other.

Currently, there are 174 nobles on the island spread out over every corner of the island. Since just about every corner of the island is covered lets look at what the density would be if every region is occupied. With the current 174 nobles and 156 regions that leaves a density of 1.115 which is obviously not desirable. If every region were to be filled, to the current standard of 1.7 density, it would take 266 nobles. Since we probably won't get another 92 nobles created on the island anytime soon, we must accept that there will be a good portion of the island that is rogue and can not be taken.

The question then is what to do about the situation. Since we can't increase the number of nobles with a press of the button, how about decreasing the regions. This happened previously with the sinking of parts of the island. On the original map there were 190 regions which means 34 regions were placed under the sea. (Assuming the 190 is correct, it is based off of the category "Atamara Regions" on the wiki.) This is a possible solution but it is destructive and isn't what I, or anyone that I know of, would like to see. What I would like to see is for the players to simply be as closely packed together as possible. How this is accomplished is the true question.

If there were to be a decrease in the number of regions, we would need to know a target number of regions. With the current 174 noble count in mind, we'll look at the numbers based on a four different density targets. The lowest count will be 1.7 and the highest count will be 3. The lowest is from the current takeover limit and the highest is the start of the takeover warning that you are getting low on nobles.

With 1.7 density: 102 regions making up 65.4% of the island.
With 2 density: 87 regions making up 55.8% of the island.
With 2.5 density: 70 regions making up 44.9% of the island.
With 3 density: 58 regions making up 37.2% of the island.

Which density is ideal? I don't know but what I do know is that the current number of nobles can only hold at most 102 regions or 65.4% of the island. What would the island look like if a portion of the island were sunk to suit these numbers? Well, I made a map of the island with the regions highlighted based on what regions would be held by the players. This map, linked below, has a portion of it dedicated to each of those density levels listed above. The green highlight is an area of 58 regions for density level of 3. Green and light blue are for a density level of 2.5. Green, light blue, and yellow are for a density level of 2.5. All of the highlighted area contains a total of 102 regions for the current density limit of 1.7.

https://ibb.co/RY79hyy

The map was made by starting in the region of Agyr (top right city) and moving out by 1 region away from the last border. There was also a priority to fill out the northern end of the island before moving south. This does not result in an ideal map for each density but I think it works well for the two extremes (1.7 & 3). If a different density is the target then the regions would have to be adjusted. I'm going to work through the rest of this post at the assumption that 1.7 density is the target for now.

What is easily seen here is that only two realms would be displaced in the process of shrinking the map (again, to the 1.7 mark). These two realms are: Sacred Obia'Syela (SOS) and Shattered Vales (SV). In an ideal world the players would take the option, that the admins wisely made available, to become a temporary nomad. This would allow them to move their realm from one place to another. For instance, SOS could abandon the south and move to the north. The regions they hold in the south would be lost and their capital would then be some place in the north. From an OoC perspective, solely thinking about what is best for the game, this move makes perfect sense. It allows for realms to be much closer together and enables more interaction between the realms. From an IC perspective, this move makes ZERO sense. I could expand on that but it is an unnecessary diversion.

A forced move of the realms in question could be used instead of the voluntary movement of the realms. This would involve an invasion that decimates the south and occupies the regions south of the desired border. For the map I made this would mean that Worvobaen, Jaekind, Xinjin, Zuhle, and all regions south of that would be occupied by some invader. As the density of players increase the invaders could weaken at the border allowing more expansion into the southern lands. This would make the map smaller without making any destructive changes to the map. The lands of the invaders could be the launch pad of an invasion of the north if it is ever needed. This could be accomplished by sea travel, land travel, and maybe even some portals. The justification for them not continuing the invasion could be just about anything. For instance, if you want to rip off Game of Thrones (or history, i.e. China) you could make it some type of wall.

The negative of a forced move is that it can make some players unhappy. A way around this is to give SV and SOS the option of agreeing with an invasion. This would effectively combine an invasion with the use of nomad status. How to find out if they agree to this plan? Use an in-game referendum for the realms to see if they want to make a voluntary move via invasion or even without the use of an invasion. (Yes, SOS didn't have to move south to begin with but an in-realm OoC discussion on why being in the south is not a good idea and being given an option to return north would be beneficial. I will start that conversation later since I have a character in the realm.)

If they both agree then before the invasion destroys them then they can use the nomad status or some other form of relocation before the invasion kills them. The idea would be an invasion brings the realms close to destruction then they get a portal in their capital, or sea travel, that will take them to a new location to takeover. An alternative to the portal would be a Moses situation where they can part the invaders to travel to their new home. The first is better but the point is there is room for creativity (RP!) here. The biggest positive to the use of an invasion is that it allows for IC justification for a relocation and could be seen as a fun event. Plus it could be sustained/halted to make the island smaller thus increasing density.

What about the other players? Well, they may not like a new powerful neighbor or they might want in on the fun. A hit on the north could be planned as well or they could always try to take out the new realm quickly. No matter what there will be people unhappy but I think this method at least keeps that number as small as possible.

What if they both disagree? Simply allow them to stay in the south. It isn't the best way forward but at least there is no force involved. If there is a change in sentiment then the topic could be revisited. Perhaps with less 

What if only one agrees? I haven't laid that out but I'm sure something could be arranged for this situation. In fact, it could tie into the next part of this post.

As I said at the beginning, I do not think an invasion is completely necessary. In order to show why that is, I'll lay out a couple more numbers. Excluding the southern realms, SOS and SV, there are currently 118 nobles in the north. If the map was adjusted, either through some force like an invasion or through players making the right moves on their own, a certain area (63 regions) could be maintained at a density of 1.87. In order to get to this number, there was minimal displacement. Before getting into that I will provide a map of the north. The red area is a total of 63 regions with minor displacement.

https://ibb.co/zsk8y7p

With the area I laid out, the realm of Bara'Kuhr is considered to be lost (because 3 nobles and 1 region is not a realm to begin with) and the realm of Nothoi would lose two rural regions. If Nothoi doesn't lose the regions then a density of 1.81 is achieved. If Bara'Kuhr is left alone and they get one more region, towards the red, then the density is around 1.76. Both of these situations are above the 1.7 goal. Is force needed to achieve this? No, the map is simply where everyone will wind up if they head towards each other. Force is only needed if you want to insure that the players will make the right move. It is also a nice way to get rid of the "realm" of Bara'Kuhr.

A wild card in this is the eventual implementation of hinterlands. I'm not sure how this will change things exactly but it is something to consider. It should also be noted that this is all tied to only the number of nobles and the number of regions. Realms are also a factor that plays a role in all of this.

PolarRaven

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Re: The State of Beluaterra: Time for an Invasion?
« Reply #1: December 26, 2018, 01:43:34 AM »
Thanks for the insightful presentation of possibilities to help meet the density concerns for BattleMaster.
It is a tough subject to discuss as most players don't like to be forced into, nor made to choose from, options that they do not like, even though it could, theoretically, lead to a better gaming experience for everyone involved.  Players just don't want to give up that which they have worked for (history, realms, connections, RP's, story lines,...). 
Many of these things have been years in the making for some players. 

Sadly, the current maps are too big and the players, too few. 
How do we force players into a smaller map without loosing more players or disrupting their fun?

I believe that it is time for Humanity to invade the Daimon's realm.
So, where do the Daimons come from and what does their world look like?
I picture their realm to look like BT, but in a much reduced size. 
(Devs can decide which regions exist in the Daimon realm.  Maybe even start with the "original full map" when deciding which regions are to exist in the Daimon realm?)
That's why they keep trying to invade BT, for more space to give them room to expand. 

So, how could we go about this?
Firstly, the next invasion of BT would begin.
The Daimons have finally found a way to open 3-5 stable portals (I suggest mountain regions throughout BT, as most realms have mountains near them) which will allow travel to the opposite world (once a daimon or noble passes through, they can not return to their homelands). 

As each noble passes through one of these portals, they automatically become part of a new, temporary realm, called HUMANITY.
HUMANITY could then work together to clear the Daimon realm of any Daimon's that did not join the invasion forces to BT, while those Daimons that did make it to BT will be unable to return home to reinforce their brethren that remain in the Daimon realm.

HUMANITY will obviously need a foot-hold in the Daimon realm where they can recruit, repair, replace their loss of troops.
Maybe there is a Daimon sympathetic to the cause of HUMANITY that would offer their "city" as a refuge to start from.
Maybe a Human that got "sucked into" the Daimon realm years ago has managed to secure a secluded location for HUMANITY to start their invasion of the Daimons.

The possibilities are endless.  The goal is to reduce the size of the map of BT, to be suitable for the current density of nobles.
This could work with the established history of BT, while reducing the current map size and increasing density.
The realm of HUMANITY would need to work together initially, but would certainly fracture into smaller groups (realms) as the Daimons are defeated. 
Essentially the entire continent will be migrated to a smaller version of the continent.
The realm of HUMANITY will be democratic with monthly elections (can not be adjusted by players).
Once the Daimons are dealt with and HUMANITY has entrenched itself into the "new" world, new realms will start to emerge allowing for players to choose their gov't systems, etc.   

Advantages that I can see:
History of BT continues (big step forward in the story line that already exists).
No "one group" of players will suffer for the enjoyment of everyone (as happens with blights, glaciers, sinking...).
RP possibilities are endless.
Density can be set to meet the needs of the current player base.
Realms may be lost, but religions/guilds/etc. can be brought along by the players.
Lots of political maneuvering possibilities for council positions and lordships.
WE would finally get to take the fight to the Daimons.

A couple of disadvantages I see:
Obviously, not everyone would like the idea.
Tax income for the initial stages of the move would be difficult.



Medron Pryde

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Re: The State of Beluaterra: Time for an Invasion?
« Reply #2: December 26, 2018, 02:46:05 AM »
Considering we JUST got out of one invasion and are only now recovering and getting into a position where we can do some PVP again, I think now is a bad time to start another invasion.

Wimpie

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Re: The State of Beluaterra: Time for an Invasion?
« Reply #3: December 26, 2018, 06:27:50 PM »
Considering we JUST got out of one invasion and are only now recovering and getting into a position where we can do some PVP again, I think now is a bad time to start another invasion.

Seconded.
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Abstract

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Re: The State of Beluaterra: Time for an Invasion?
« Reply #5: December 27, 2018, 01:28:56 AM »
Considering we JUST got out of one invasion and are only now recovering and getting into a position where we can do some PVP again, I think now is a bad time to start another invasion.

According to the wiki, which Vita recently updated, the last invasion was technically over back in October of 2017. Which is just over a year ago and if one were to happen this very day it wouldn't even be the shortest period of peace in the history of the island. I understand the main point is the rogues have just now retreated. I agree with this and is part of my point in the main post as well. That an invasion to "decrease" the island size may not be needed because when left alone (i.e. now that the rogues have left) the realms could move towards each other. The realms of the north moving towards each other will lead to about 1.76 density of all nobles in those regions. All movement away from each other would decrease that density. It should be noted that this is a shallow analysis because it is doesn't take into consideration the realms individually and assumes zero rogue regions in the area. There might be, and probably is, some hindrance to PvP if you take into consideration the realms individually and the 1.7 takeover limit.

The main point that I wanted to convey is that occupying the entire island is not possible. The maximum amount of the island that can be occupied is 65.4%. Due to this, it is best to have the realms as close together as possible (i.e. "decrease" the island size). While it is possible for the admins to completely force this, I don't think it would be for the best. I think what would be the best is for the players themselves to think about what is best for the island/game and try to achieve that goal. What I suggested was, in essence, for the players to decide if such a move is for the best and the admins give assistance if the players agreed. That is why I brought up a referendum and then said: "What if they both disagree? Simply allow them to stay in the south." I also left the time frame ambiguous. If a shrinking of the island is deemed desirable in the future then this is a way that could achieve it.

The only use of force that I think the admins should consider right now, but not necessarily make, is surrounding the north to force them towards each other and maybe get rid of one "realm".

I was tired by the time I wrote the main post outlaying all of this and may have done a poor job expressing myself. If I implied something other than the above then it was not intentional.

I believe that it is time for Humanity to invade the Daimon's realm.
So, where do the Daimons come from and what does their world look like?
I picture their realm to look like BT, but in a much reduced size. 
(Devs can decide which regions exist in the Daimon realm.  Maybe even start with the "original full map" when deciding which regions are to exist in the Daimon realm?)

Honestly, while interesting in concept, sounds like something that would take a lot more time than it is worth.

Chenier

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Re: The State of Beluaterra: Time for an Invasion?
« Reply #6: December 27, 2018, 01:31:30 AM »
Whenever the last invasion was "officially" over, the mini-invasion mechanics have meant that no one really got a break, ever.
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Wimpie

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Re: The State of Beluaterra: Time for an Invasion?
« Reply #7: December 27, 2018, 01:09:25 PM »
Whenever the last invasion was "officially" over, the mini-invasion mechanics have meant that no one really got a break, ever.

Weirdly enough, this is the second time I agree with Chénier in this thread.
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Gordy77

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Re: The State of Beluaterra: Time for an Invasion?
« Reply #8: December 27, 2018, 10:23:39 PM »
Actually having everyone start off a new island as one huge realm does sounds pretty cool. Then you'd have true duchy splits and infighting and new realms springing up and dividing..

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