Author Topic: 15 Nobles! 15!!!!  (Read 986 times)

Greybrook

  • Freeman
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: 15 Nobles! 15!!!!
« Reply #30: March 07, 2019, 10:09:34 AM »
As one of the founding players of Tol Goldora, people came from all over the place. We would not of had the chance to demonstrate the colony idea with 15 nobles. While I understand the reasoning behind a ruling - we all want to be in active realms who can have a decent noble hierarchy and army, the number either needs to come down or dynamic based on realm size.

I am also more than happy to act as a soundboard for changes - I cannot code alas.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 10:12:53 AM by Greybrook »

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3835
    • View Profile
Re: 15 Nobles! 15!!!!
« Reply #31: March 07, 2019, 11:25:41 AM »
Yes.

Under the new rules, the players would need to start up their new characters in the sponsoring realm.  Sol in the case of Tol Goldura.

They would make themselves knights of the duchy in question.  Which means at least 15 estates would need to be established in that duchy for those nobles.  That would constitute 15 estates at 6% share with a single estate of 10% for the duke or city lord.  It would have to be a rich city to give them much income.

I would note that if we are now pushing to have larger realms rather than pushing people to create new realms, we may wish to revisit the penalties visited upon larger realms.  Loss of control and the like.

We are otherwise going to be stuck in the situation of realms being too large to be efficient but too small to break up.  It may end up an unhappy medium for all involved.

Or they would need to have more regions established before hitting the seceded button?

what makes it not possible to have 15 nobles start  new realm, then many of them return home?

Nothing, though some might have RP issues with that. Oaths to a realm are important, to me such action would be similar placeholder lords.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 11:30:08 AM by De-Legro »
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Anaris

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8067
    • View Profile
Re: 15 Nobles! 15!!!!
« Reply #32: March 07, 2019, 01:51:52 PM »
There should be an exemption.  If a Duke is banned they should have the opportunity to secede no matter what.

That would open up a glaringly obvious loophole: want to found a new realm? Still on good terms with your government? That's OK, have them ban you anyway!

Quote
As for the 15 nobles I think 10 might have been a fairer number.  Astrum was founded by 5 or 6 nobles trecking through winter and fighting the hordes to make it to Libidized.

There's a big difference between letting people found arbitrary-sized realms when the overall playerbase is healthy, and letting people found arbitrary-sized realms when the average realm size is below 20 and there are issues with finding a decent, interesting, and interactive realm wherever you go.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

dustole

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 708
    • View Profile
Re: 15 Nobles! 15!!!!
« Reply #33: March 07, 2019, 02:06:44 PM »
That would open up a glaringly obvious loophole: want to found a new realm? Still on good terms with your government? That's OK, have them ban you anyway!


That's a small price to pay to retain Ducal Power.  Dukes have always had that power.  Taking the power away to allow them to secede is a HUGE power shift.  I understand why you are making the changes, but this changes a very large dynamic to the game.   Being able to secede as Duke is what kept the balance.  If they banned you, good chance you were taking your Duchy with you.


As for having your realm ban you to allow you to secede and form a new realm...   then deal with it on a case by case basis.  If it happens like that people will make a Titan report and it can be dealt with.    What's to stop people from loading a Duchy with nobles and have them trickle back to the main realm after the secession?  Your current rule leaves a loophole too.  How to fix that? Make it against the rules...  the same way to fix the problem with friendly banishments, with a rule.   

Maybe this is all too much work and not worth it.  I understand there are limited resources, but removing so much power from a Duke will.change the dynamic of the game.   
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Foxglove

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 619
    • View Profile
Re: 15 Nobles! 15!!!!
« Reply #34: March 07, 2019, 04:45:56 PM »
I think the 15 nobles threshold to found a new realm is reasonable enough. The game doesn't really need new realms at this stage, anyway. The conversion of Alara to Sydgard shows there are other ways to have fresh starts and try out new things. The same goes for realm mergers. Merge realms and create something new out of the merger (or meld existing cultures to provide a new twist).

New realms founded with a few nobles tend to be vanity projects that some times hit gold, but more often crash and burn.

Ocean Yong Kiran

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: 15 Nobles! 15!!!!
« Reply #35: March 08, 2019, 07:29:17 AM »
Again I ask - why is there so much desire to make new realms that are small and boring? In real history, if a duke or someone says "Now I am a King!" someone else say "No you are not" and smashes him. Almost never you see this succssion thing happen.

In the game, even worse. No one to talk to. Nothing to do because you are not strong enough to do anything. Boring.

I think make more ways for Duke to try to be King, not more ways for Duke to run away with his ball and only play with his own friends.

Vita

  • Administrator
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 2416
    • View Profile
Re: 15 Nobles! 15!!!!
« Reply #36: March 08, 2019, 04:24:34 PM »
Well as another example, every knight in Obsidian Islands has just turned out to help Perdan fight the entire North. Seems to me their getting to see plenty of action.
But how many engaging messages do they receive in comparison ? The answer is Perdan's received 74 realm-channel messages in the last month while Obsidian Islands has received 6. Would it not be better for them to be part of Perdan's team without having to march through additional lands to participate in the war?

There should be an exemption.  If a Duke is banned they should have the opportunity to secede no matter what.
No. There is no inalienable right to secede. Internal situations as dukes being banned were considered and this is why there is not a requirement for the old realm to have any minimum, so there is flexibility for a realm's nobility to side with the duke and then wage war upon the old realm without keeping them stuck in one realm.

There's a big difference between letting people found arbitrary-sized realms when the overall playerbase is healthy, and letting people found arbitrary-sized realms when the average realm size is below 20 and there are issues with finding a decent, interesting, and interactive realm wherever you go.
When the playerbase was healthy, generally founding particularly tiny realms did not bode well for one's longevity - there was a natural minimum enforcement. The way I see it, this is replicating that in an environment that can no longer naturally pressure small realms.

That's a small price to pay to retain Ducal Power.  Dukes have always had that power.  Taking the power away to allow them to secede is a HUGE power shift.  I understand why you are making the changes, but this changes a very large dynamic to the game.   Being able to secede as Duke is what kept the balance.  If they banned you, good chance you were taking your Duchy with you.
I'm not sure if dukes have *always* had that power, but certainly as long as you've played, its been true. While the change wasn't about the following at all, dukes *have* been considered overpowered and needing balanced in relation to the rest of the hierarchy for some time. Again, there is no inalienable rights for dukes to do as they please and always get their way. The game is a *team* game, not about particular individuals' getting their way, everyone else can be banned and lose lands too, if they're not prepared or in a bad spot. The changes were made such that if the dukes have the popular support of the realm, they should be able to emerge victorious in any power struggles.