Author Topic: Commoner Questions  (Read 1599 times)

dustole

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Commoner Questions
« Topic Start: May 03, 2019, 04:49:51 PM »
My noble has been declared a commoner because I am antagonistic towards a popular noble.  The rest of the realm is going along with it.   No way would the nobility accept such a thing.  At what point does game mechanics trump role playing and what recourse do I have?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 11:09:29 PM by dustole »
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Anaris

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #1: May 03, 2019, 05:18:37 PM »
The Titans are not here to be the RP police.

That said, if an entire realm is blatantly ignoring game mechanics to that degree...I'm not entirely comfortable with that.

This situation sounds like it needs some more detail for it to be clear whether (and to what degree) the general principle of "game mechanics trump RP" is being violated. Can you expand a little?

If you're not comfortable doing so in open forum, feel free to PM me either here or on Discord.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

dustole

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #2: May 03, 2019, 05:35:15 PM »
Rania declared her commoner to be a noble and heir. The game says she's a commoner and not a noble.  The commoner was being treated as a noble in RP's and such.  I protested such things as it goes against what it means to be noble.  If they were going to declare a commoner to be heir to a Royal and a Duke I started asking pointed questions to gain more details.  Now I'm the bad guy...  yes I pushed buttons...  the gist seems to be that family history isn't accurate and now I've been 'demoted' to being a commoner.   No one wants to speak up against it even though the guide to adventurers goes against all they are doing. Rania is quite popular so no one is going to question her.     A noble being declared a commoner should cause riots and no one seems to care
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 06:00:19 PM by dustole »
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Will Roberts

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #3: May 03, 2019, 07:34:33 PM »
That is not exactly accurate. The character has been demoted to a commoner level in a guild, not in general. In the eyes of the faith he is being treated of lower standing, not in every day noble life

D'Espana

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #4: May 03, 2019, 07:49:22 PM »
Plus a couple of other things. The situation has been irregular for sure, but IMO certainly not deserving of a Titan intervention. My POV:

Rania has a daughter, RPed from RL years as an NPC, which the player decided to eventually "bring to life" by making her an advie. This was meant to represent a daughter that was not officially recognized and that had been mostly kept hidden for many years. After that, the daughter is RPed to escape from his mother and begin a life of adventure in a different realm.

Eventually, and to the case at hand, the daughter comes home and, in a public RP ceremony, Rania recognizes her as her daughter. The RP then continues as she takes part in a ritual where portal stones are used, and the daughter sacrifices herself in the process. This daughter of Rania, now dead, had reciprocal emotional ties to a couple other nobles present in the RP, these ties dating all the way back to when she was used as an NPC. These nobles mourn her, as does Rania.

Now this is where things get interesting. Due to an irrelevant IC issue, dustole's character confronts one of the mourning nobles and berates him for mourning over a commoner. Several nobles, including Rania, jump in over several days and remind dustole's character that, no matter her origin, the daughter of the Rania was, well, the daughter of Rania, and due to how respected Rania is and the sacrifice made by her daughter he is to stop all the ruckus at once.

Alas, he does not. Dustole's character keeps charging repeteadly against the mourning noble and, later on, Rania, and says increasingly severe statements that end up becoming direct accusations to Rania (the leader of the realm's religion, a theocracy), stating that she may have been banging commoners or even Daimons and insinuating that perhaps she might even be an undead abomination. That doesn't sit well with Rania's allies, who come to the rescue and start accusing dustole's character of several things, the final one even being heresy for saying such things about the highest figure of the faith.

Finally, Rania comes in, demotes him to adventurer-level in the religion's temple and says that he is to be isolated as a consequence for his words and actions. Dustole's character doesn't take it good, faces the possibility of a holy trial against him and here we are now.

This is a brief summary, I will respond any questions to the best of my ability.

So irregular? Yes, the decision to have Rania's daughter made as an adventurer and dustole's character demoted to adventurer rank in the faith are inusual. A breach of the game mechanics and reason for the Titans to intervene? Probably not.
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Anaris

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #5: May 03, 2019, 07:53:36 PM »
Thanks for the additional perspective, D'Espana.

Dustole, are there any substantial parts of D'Espana's explanation that you would care to dispute? Concisely, please.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

dustole

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #6: May 03, 2019, 09:06:18 PM »
Despana forgot the part where the commoner was declared a noble without without using the game mechanics to do so and was declared Ranias Heir.  As for accusing fornication with a commoner or Daimon, no not quite....

Letter from Zebidiah Kabrinski 
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients) - 22 hours, 43 minutes ago

Your Grace Rania,

Your own family doesn't recognize her either. Also, you didn't answer the question. Who is the father? How do we know you didn't fornication with some dirty commoner or abused by some Daimon? No, your daughter is not and never will be a noble. Wish all you want. Bluff and bluster all you want. It doesn't change the simple facts.

Zebidiah Kabrinski
Knight of Jidington
Marshal of the Army of Jidington


Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Anaris

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #7: May 03, 2019, 09:08:23 PM »
Despana forgot the part where the commoner was declared a noble without without using the game mechanics to do so and was declared Ranias Heir.  As for accusing fornication with a commoner or Daimon, no not quite....

That's only peripherally relevant to the case at hand—which, if what D'Espana says is true, does not actually involve Zebidiah being declared a commoner in any significant sense.

Please stick to the facts of the matter currently under consideration. With that in mind, are there any substantial parts of D'Espana's explanation that you would care to concisely dispute?
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

dustole

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #8: May 03, 2019, 09:15:21 PM »
Letter from Vahanian Blint 
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients) - 4 hours, 18 minutes ago

In the eyes of the church you are a commoner. You have been stripped of all other rights, titles, and ranks per the Holy Oracle's decree.

Vahanian Blint
Duke of Amen Telum
Margrave of Grehk
Priest of Heralds of Obeah

Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Anaris

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #9: May 03, 2019, 09:16:08 PM »
Letter from Vahanian Blint
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients) - 4 hours, 18 minutes ago

In the eyes of the church you are a commoner. You have been stripped of all other rights, titles, and ranks per the Holy Oracle's decree.

Vahanian Blint
Duke of Amen Telum
Margrave of Grehk
Priest of Heralds of Obeah

Letter from Antonia Fitz Roberts
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients)
It is clear to me that the Oracle's will has been misinterpreted. He has not been declared a commoner, simply demoted to a position of dishonour in the faith as a punishment for his gross and flagrant attacks on the sanctity of our Oracle.

Declaring him a commoner would be another thing entirely. He is still a noble, yet in the eyes of the faith a noble so disgraced that he should not hold positions in the faith reserved for the nobility

Antonia Fitz Roberts
Dame of Rines
Marshal of the Farseers of the Oracle
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

dustole

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #10: May 03, 2019, 09:26:44 PM »
Convenient ass covering by antonia...  I was told I was not allowed to be Marshal or lord because I'm a 'commoner' and now I've been accused of multi cheating. 
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Anaris

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #11: May 03, 2019, 09:28:27 PM »
Convenient ass covering by antonia...  I was told I was not allowed to be Marshal or lord because I'm a 'commoner'

Can you please cite this?
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

D'Espana

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #12: May 03, 2019, 09:50:49 PM »
From Rania's letter, this seems like the relevant bit.

"The faith already has a word for that, written down in the earliest days. Literally by his own hand, Zebidaih Kabrinski has chosen the path of the Infidel: One of those who bear false witness against Obeah, her priesthood, or the teachings of the Faith. For this as well as his bitter, vile disrespect, the grace of my favor is utterly withdrawn. I will no longer protect him from those that mean him ill. I've shielded him too often from the rod, and it seems the child's mind has spoiled. Henceforward, he will be stripped of the title of Lord Templar and busted down to scholar adept, the initiate rank reserved for commoners. However, due to his longstanding debt with the church, he will be afforded one day to return the gold he has taken from the temples otherwise his entry will be entirely stricken from the Book of Names, meaning he will be removed from the faith. If removed, he will be stripped of all his titles, including command of the army as Marshal, and forbidden from holding any lands or offices beyond simple estates. For as long as he remains in disfavor, claiming him as a friend or ally will only tarnish. For now, this is sufficient, and in my opinion mercifully fair, chastisement."
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Anaris

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #13: May 03, 2019, 09:56:40 PM »
From Rania's letter, this seems like the relevant bit.

"The faith already has a word for that, written down in the earliest days. Literally by his own hand, Zebidaih Kabrinski has chosen the path of the Infidel: One of those who bear false witness against Obeah, her priesthood, or the teachings of the Faith. For this as well as his bitter, vile disrespect, the grace of my favor is utterly withdrawn. I will no longer protect him from those that mean him ill. I've shielded him too often from the rod, and it seems the child's mind has spoiled. Henceforward, he will be stripped of the title of Lord Templar and busted down to scholar adept, the initiate rank reserved for commoners. However, due to his longstanding debt with the church, he will be afforded one day to return the gold he has taken from the temples otherwise his entry will be entirely stricken from the Book of Names, meaning he will be removed from the faith. If removed, he will be stripped of all his titles, including command of the army as Marshal, and forbidden from holding any lands or offices beyond simple estates. For as long as he remains in disfavor, claiming him as a friend or ally will only tarnish. For now, this is sufficient, and in my opinion mercifully fair, chastisement."

And if that is the passage you are referring to, dustole, nowhere does that state that you are disallowed from being those things because you are a commoner.

You were told that you were being stripped of those privileges due to your political clashes with the powerful in the realm, and being demoted to a church rank normally reserved for commoners due to your clashes with the powerful in the church.

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but if you want me to be on your side in this, you need to a) stop wilfully misinterpreting things other people say/do into the worst possible forms, and b) don't make every attempt of mine to get the full story be like pulling teeth. I get it, you feel like you were treated badly and like they're abusing RP rules. But if you're right, then giving me the whole story, clearly and straightforwardly, from the beginning, is the best way to get something done about it. Just posting one more quote as if that's the pièce de résistance that will, by itself, prove your entire point and make everything come completely clear is both ineffective and extremely frustrating from my poiint of view.

So if you disagree with D'Espana here, please post specific quotes, along with the specific reasons they are relevant, to support every one of your points, or admit that, just possibly, you might have overreacted here.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

dustole

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #14: May 03, 2019, 10:39:35 PM »
The Vahanian quote was what I was referring to.  After I posted my question here they changed their characters point of view.   I didn't post quotes to start with because I didn't think they would be needed.  My main question was about game mechanics trumping RP.  I will do better in the future enunciation my questions further.   A commoner is a commoner and not a noble.  RPing that they are a noble seems like it should be against the rules. 
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)