Author Topic: Commoner Questions  (Read 406 times)

Anaris

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #15: May 03, 2019, 11:01:42 PM »
A commoner is a commoner and not a noble.  RPing that they are a noble seems like it should be against the rules.

But what you came here asking about was your noble being declared and treated as a commoner.

Furthermore, while I only know bits and pieces of Stheno's story (primarily the end of it), from what I understand, she wasn't really treated as a noble. She was simply treated as Rania's daughter. An acknowledged bastard doesn't necessarily become noble automatically. (Some may have, in some systems of nobility, but it wasn't at all a universal trait of aristocracies.) And I don't care what Tom's guidelines say: the idea that absolutely every commoner must be treated like less than an animal by absolutely every noble is utterly ludicrous. Treating another human being with a modicum of respect and dignity does not have to mean recognizing them as your social equal.

So please calm yourself, and open yourself to alternative interpretations to the ones that paint people as rotten, and you will probably have a more fun time in BattleMaster. And in life.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

dustole

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #16: May 03, 2019, 11:07:14 PM »
Also, doesn't having a commoner declared a noble and your heir circumvent the 1 noble rule? 


She was declared a noble and Ranias Heir.  Several other nobles participated.   Not just her daughter.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 11:11:40 PM by dustole »
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Anaris

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Re: Noble being declared a commoner
« Reply #17: May 03, 2019, 11:26:50 PM »
Also, doesn't having a commoner declared a noble and your heir circumvent the 1 noble rule? 

Obviously not, because there is no "1 noble rule"—there's a game-mechanic restriction preventing you from actually having more than one active noble on a continent.

Quote
She was declared a noble and Ranias Heir.  Several other nobles participated.   Not just her daughter.

Then that was probably going a little far, and if I'd known about it, I would have advised JeVondair against it.

But it's hardly an egregious violation of any rule.

Treating a commoner as if they were a noble—particularly in the specific circumstances that pertained to Stheno—may technically violate the RP guidelines for commoners, but declaring and treating a noble as if they were a commoner is a much more serious violation. The former merely creates the possibility for certain kinds of inconsistency and frustration, while the latter is not only something that cannot, in BattleMaster's world, ever happen (not since we did away with the "question nobility" option over a decade ago), its purpose is to exclude and cut off a player character. If someone has done something bad enough that a realm would ever agree to consider them no longer a noble, the correct course of action would simply be to ban them.

I hope this clarifies why I would treat this case very differently if Zebidiah genuinely was being declared and treated as no longer a noble.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

JeVondair

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Re: Commoner Questions
« Reply #18: May 04, 2019, 07:31:12 AM »
Vahanian's interpretation of the punishment Rania leveled was incorrect from the start. Antonia's was correct.


The relevant portion of the RP in question, which Dustole admitted he did not bother to read, features Rania announcing Stheno as her daughter and heir (lowercase) as a mere introduction to Obian high society. I used the word heir to indicate that, being so named and claimed, no one would miss the drama of the scenes that followed. I did say that she was going to become a knight, however, I knew how the story would end. Some of the participating nobles were already aware, of course, but this was not for their benefit. Rather, I was and am firmly establishing lore for a current, longstanding BM narrative project that remains ongoing.

In short, Rania never said Stheno would inherit her titles/power/legacy, etc. Nor did Rania ever say Zebidiah was no longer a noble or a knight. Also, the main evidence Zeb/Dusty used throughout were the family records that "proved" Stheno was a commoner. No, they "proved" Stheno started a life of adventure. Its semantics, yes, but apparently this entire matter started with semantics.

I have the entire RPs saved, if he'd care to read them now. They began in March.



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Ocean Yong Kiran

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Re: Commoner Questions
« Reply #19: May 04, 2019, 09:27:55 AM »
Maybe in this game churches different, but real life, church never make noble into common person.

Church can make excommunications, yes.

Real life, I think never happened so not possible make sure, but probably all nobles rebel against church trying to take away such a thing. real life more practical than people think; multiple Popes, self helping Crusades, war against other parts of church

Real life, nobles let church make one noble into common person, maybe they be next? Never let this happen. This story not realistic.

Noble excommunicated can pay indulgences, all okay again. Noble no more noble? What they do? Noble is blood; not possible take away. Everyone know this; no one even have though "now you not noble". Not even possible for thinking.

Maybe people being confused, "not noble" vs. "no more title"? Titles can take away, very common. Nobility, no.

If okay make game like this, also maybe okay outer space monsters come visit, make new realm.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 09:43:34 AM by Ocean Yong Kiran »

Anaris

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Re: Commoner Questions
« Reply #20: May 04, 2019, 03:21:44 PM »
Maybe in this game churches different, but real life, church never make noble into common person.

And if you will actually go back and read all the posts in this thread, you will see that no one has made the slightest claim that that is what happened.

Please do catch up on all the posts in a thread before posting, especially if you feel upset or wish to correct errors you see in the early posts.

To save you a little bit of time here, I reproduce the most relevant message below, with the most relevant text therein bolded for your convenience.

Quote
Letter from Antonia Fitz Roberts
Message sent to all nobles of Obia'Syela (35 recipients)
It is clear to me that the Oracle's will has been misinterpreted. He has not been declared a commoner, simply demoted to a position of dishonour in the faith as a punishment for his gross and flagrant attacks on the sanctity of our Oracle.

Declaring him a commoner would be another thing entirely. He is still a noble, yet in the eyes of the faith a noble so disgraced that he should not hold positions in the faith reserved for the nobility

Antonia Fitz Roberts
Dame of Rines
Marshal of the Farseers of the Oracle
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

dustole

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Re: Commoner Questions
« Reply #21: May 05, 2019, 06:36:15 PM »

. Also, the main evidence Zeb/Dusty used throughout were the family records that "proved" Stheno was a commoner. No, they "proved" Stheno started a life of adventure. Its semantics, yes, but apparently this entire matter started with semantics.



The part of the family history that's most important is what's missing.  Theirs no affirmation of her becoming a noble.  According to the family history she was born a commoner and she died a commoner.
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Abstract Logic

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Re: Commoner Questions
« Reply #22: May 05, 2019, 09:59:55 PM »
The part of the family history that's most important is what's missing.  Theirs no affirmation of her becoming a noble.  According to the family history she was born a commoner and she died a commoner.

I understand where you are coming from but to me all of this honestly feels like unnecessary nitpicking that stomps on other peoples fun. We aren't talking about someone changing the results of a battle or a duel or magically claiming your character is in a region that they are not. We are talking about someone being unable to make an adventurer, who will be dead by the end of the day, into a noble due to one reason and one reason only: the one noble per island limit. I see zero harm in trumping the game mechanics in this very specific case.