OOC power-gaming???

[PolarRaven]

I'm not even sure where to start with this one, as it such a volatile subject.
I understand that BattleMaster is a work in progress game and we will certainly find things within that do need changing.

Firstly, this is MY opinion from MY point of view and not everyone expected to agree with me.
In my opinion, this is where the supposed OOC problem we now face started:

Letter from Glynkar Plaraveen
Message sent to the rulers of Beluaterra (7 recipients) - just in


Queen Aibhlidhn,

***
Thank you Eldest Wilhelm.  All very good points.
***

I gave up Baqua willingly as you asked, you need not bother the rulers channel in an effort to buy time to finish the TO of Baqua.
There are currently no forces on the way to interfere with the TO in Baqua.  You are not taking the region, it was given freely.


So, is this to be as you suggest an existential war in which case all allies must become enmeshed?

That choice is not mine to make, it is the choice of you and your allies.
I will repeat what I explained earlier, which I thought was quite clear:

Goatseer Quartz wants a nice clean and polite war, well I offer this:

Send your allies home so Caelint and Gotland can go toe to toe, one on one.
Capitals (only) will be spared the destruction of battle, but all else is fair game.
There you have it, a nice clean and polite war with terms that will see neither realm utterly destroyed.

Northern Alliance Members,

I offer you basically the same.
Go home now and leave Gotland to the war that it has pushed for and earned.
A one on one war with limits.
If any member of the NA (other than Gotland) enters Caelint lands, I will settle for nothing less than an all out war that will certainly see the end of Caelint or Gotland.

So, the question goes to you - Is this to be an existential war in which case all allies must become enmeshed?
We have not yet invited our allies into our lands.  Should I send word to them?

On a separate note, we have just received our first prisoner of war.

New Prisoner
message to the realm's council - 1 hour, 26 minutes ago

Patrols in Djembe have captured the enemy adventurer Vladmir, Commoner. He is now on his way into your dungeons.

Though he is a commoner of very little importance, he is a bastard son of Gotland.
Since I have previously warned Gotland about sending their people into my lands, his execution is already on the books, so time is of the essence.

Will this be an existential war where he will be the first to die, or will my offer of a one on one limited war with Gotland be accepted and this poor wretch be set free?  A timely response is required for me to be able to intervene if necessary.



Glynkar Plaraveen
King of Caelint
Royal of Caelint

A ONE on ONE war between two realms that were basically equal in resources and nobles.
The players in Thal (and AA for that matter) CHOSE to pursue the war.
I will also note, that at that time, Thalmarkin alone had more nobles than the entire Caelint/Angmar/Nothoi alliance block combined (I do not recall the specific numbers).

Around this time (or shortly after), I recall reports of members of Thalmarkin moving to the south to interfere there as well.  Many infil attacks and scroll use that produced hoards of rogues for the southerners to deal with (not sure of more specific details as I was more concerned with the happenings in the north at that time.).  I believe that the southerners were trying to sort through troubles of their own at the time and did not really need the added excitement of Thal's "meddling".

Since that time, many things happened/changed continent-wide that can be attributed directly to the actions of Thal and its members.
Enhancing fun in the game for many players. 

Time rolls by and things change.  Realms fall, realms merge, old problems are sorted out new problems crop up... Life goes on.
Thalmarkin grows to the point that it becomes "unwieldy/unmanageable" as a single realm and the nobles choose to split and form a new realm from the resources they have. 
All is still wonderful. 

The downfall of Thalmarkin is at hand.

Thalmarkin, still quite powerful (but only half a strong as they were previously), decides to declare war on Irondale (the remnants of the remaining smaller realms in the north that have merged into one realm) figuring that it will be a fairly even war from what they can see of the current layout and happenings of the continent.
They may loose, they may win, but with the back-up of VS close at hand and many of their possible enemies far to the south, they are in no real danger from this war. 

And then things start to go bad (for Thalmarkin).
Irondale has grown strong due to the need to band together into one realm for their survival. (certainly due to Thal's actions)
Their allies in AA are no longer there to assist them due to strife between their two realms. (likely due to Thal's actions)
The southern realms contemplate "meddling" in Thal's current happenings.  (Again, likely Thal's previous actions in the south brought this on)
Then, the final straw, their former realm-mates (and back-up) in the new realm of Vordul Sanguinis decide that not only will they not help defend Thal, but they will join the other side to help "punish?" Thalmarkin.  (I am not sure of the reasoning behind this turn of events, but as members of both realms are originally from Thalmarkin, I suspect that we can say Thal's actions also caused this turn of events).

So why is everyone, all of a sudden, out to get Thalmarkin and ganging up on them?
It must certainly be OOC powergaming that is to blame. 
All Thalmarkin ever did was to try to enhance the continent and bring fun to all.

I will also note that being on the winning side of a conflict is normally MUCH more fun than being the ones who are getting their asses kicked.

[Anaris]

So why is everyone, all of a sudden, out to get Thalmarkin and ganging up on them?
It must certainly be OOC powergaming that is to blame. 

Please....please, please, please.

Don't do this.

Don't ever do this.

The other players on Beluaterra are people too. They're just trying to figure things out, the same as you are. They make mistakes, the same as you do.

I get that the situation is very frustrating. I get that Thalmarkin feels very alone in this, and very betrayed. I will be making an important announcement later today that will, I hope, address some of Thalmarkin's concerns.

But the conclusion you are jumping to hereâ€"which is an extremely common problem in BattleMasterâ€"is that the only way this could possibly have happened is that the entire rest of the continent is full of dirty rotten people who don't care about anyone's fun.

That's what destroys the ability to work together as players to find a mutually beneficial solution. (Note: not a solution that benefits both sides in a war. A solution that benefits all the players. The players are not here to win wars, because the wars are all fake. Only the players, their feelings and desires, are real. The players are here to have fun creating a story together.)

Instead, I want you to stop and remember that each and every one of them is coming at this from the same perspective as you, relatively speaking: How do I make things best for my realm? How do I find fun the easiest way? How do I maintain my character's, my realm's, my religion's, characterization and roleplay? How do I avoid having to interrupt the story I want to tell because everyone got bored and left/the realm was destroyed/I got banned?

Almost no one is a powergamer.

Almost everyone in the game cares, at least to some extent, about other people's fun.

They just don't know what's going on for those other people. Just like you don't know what's going on in their heads.

Instead of assuming they're Bad People, assume they're Confused Good People, and try to help them.

Please. Please, please, please.

[PolarRaven]

Devlin,
I am sorry. 
To be clear, I am not a member of Thalmarkin and do not even have a noble on the continent at this time.
I was a former ruler of Caelint but left the continent due to the actions of Thalmarkin and their (then) allies.

I think I must not have expressed my point clearly enough.
The point you have quoted was meant to be sarcastic.

Let me rephrase the part you have quoted without sarcasm:

So why is everyone, all of a sudden, out to get Thalmarkin and ganging up on them?
It must certainly be OOC powergaming that is to blame. 

The real answer to that question is this:
Thalmarkin has "bullied" most of the continent for quite some time now and it is not hard to believe that many people/most realms have an understandable dislike for the realm. 
This is the first time, in quite a while, that Thalmarkin has been vulnerable so why wouldn't realms with a past grudge not take advantage of that?   

There was no sympathy or concern for the fun of players in Caelint when Thalmarkin decided to "support their ally Gotland".
Although they were only one realm, they far outmatched Caelint in all aspects, but decided to join and skew what would have been a fairly evenly matched one on one war. 
Even after Caelint's allies joined the fray, Thalmarkin (being only one realm) still outmatched our side in resources and nobles.

Those people that actually feel like this is OOC powergaming are only looking at the current state of events where we see many realms "ganging up" on Thalmarkin for "no reason". 
What I am saying is by looking at the history of Thalmarkin's actions, it is not hard to see that the current situation has arrived. 
The bully has tripped and all of the smaller guys have decided to rush in and get a poke at them while they are down.

And now they cry fowl and threaten to leave the game because everyone else has decided to pick on them for "no reason".

I think that if you re-read my post without my bit of sarcasm, you will see that I do NOT believe that this is a case of "power-gaming", but an unavoidable consequence of the actions of those players in Thalmarkin.


*****THEIR OWN ACTIONS HAVE BROUGHT THEM TO THIS POINT.*****

^ = MY conclusion when properly and thouroughly read.

And Devlin, I would ask that if you are going to comment on one or two sentences from what I have written, please take the time to read the entire message before doing so.  Again, I am sorry for the sarcasm, but I believe that anyone who read the entire message would likely see that the part you refer to was being sarcastic.
(I understand that you have likely been waiting for this to hit the forums so that you could catch it before it blew up, but I don't think you gave my letter the attention it deserved because you only commented on such a small part of it.)

______________________________

The unsportsmanlike conduct here was (in MY opinion) when the former ruler of Thalmarkin publicly accused basically every player on the continent of POWER GAMING and then quit the game. 
That single event has ruined this particular war and discouraged many players from wanting to be involved. 
It has also ensured that Thalmarkin will survive, likely with little damage done to it, to avoid further accusations of "power-gaming".

[Zakky]

The new rules are to prevent realms that are not allied from acting together.

If one alliance is going after Thalmarkin that is fine. But when that alliance + realms that are at peace or neutral with are joining forces to bash on one realm, then no.

[PolarRaven]

The fact that you share a common enemy does not make you allies.

Walk into a room with 10 strangers and smack each of them in the mouth on your way by.
All of a sudden 10 strangers who don't know each other and have nothing in common (other than the smack in the mouth that you just gave them) have a common goal. 

Are ANY of them in the wrong for wanting to return your smack in the mouth?

[Anaris]

The fact that you share a common enemy does not make you allies.

Walk into a room with 10 strangers and smack each of them in the mouth on your way by.
All of a sudden 10 strangers who don't know each other and have nothing in common (other than the smack in the mouth that you just gave them) have a common goal. 

Are ANY of them in the wrong for wanting to return your smack in the mouth?

It is an OOC restriction for game balance. Attempting to make sense of it by real-world analogy will fail.

It is exactly as real and logical as only being able to move one region per turn (even if it only takes 6 hours to get from region A->B->C), or only being able to recruit troops in the capital (even if the recruitment centers are out in the rural regions).

[PolarRaven]

And yet you ignore the previous post that was directed to you specifically.
I can't say that I am surprised.

Push your agenda and rest assured that I have nothing further to add on this subject.

[Andrew]

This change is not specifically in regards to what happened on Beluaterra, but a response to what the developers of BattleMaster have collectively witnessed over sixteen (16) plus years of playing and watching and trying to improve the game.

If you believe you can make a better game, I encourage you to do so. The browser-based and strategy game ecosystems could use some more variety.

If you believe the admins and developers are pushing a hidden agenda, it's because we don't say often enough that we do these things because want people to enjoy the game. I apologize that we're not clearer on that.

[Anaris]

And yet you ignore the previous post that was directed to you specifically.
I can't say that I am surprised.

Push your agenda and rest assured that I have nothing further to add on this subject.

I've been making and eating supper, and didn't have time yet to address the significantly longer post.

I'll try and do so within the next few hours, but I can't promise.

[Gildre]

And yet you ignore the previous post that was directed to you specifically.
I can't say that I am surprised.

Push your agenda and rest assured that I have nothing further to add on this subject.

First of all, this is in no way constructive. The Devs and Admins have volunteered their time to work on the game. The only "agenda" is an effort to make the game fun. The idea that there is favour staked to certain players or realms is ridiculous. 99% of players don't know each other IRL, and the realms are fictitous. I don't understand why people take this low-road when they don't get the answers they like, but it is incredibly immature and I personally have no problem calling it out as garbage behavior.

There was no sympathy or concern for the fun of players in Caelint when Thalmarkin decided to "support their ally Gotland".

There is always concern for the fun of any player. That is literally what we try to do. Make the game fun and fair. That being said, the Titans and Admins do not actively police the game. It would be impossible. We rely on the community and player reports. So I ask you, was the alliance bloc system in place when this happened? If so, was Thalmarkin outside the bloc? If so, did you submit a Titan report? I can't stress this enough. If something breaks the rules, actively ruins someone's fun in a malicious way, or just seems wrong, then submit a Titan report. Don't just mention things to people. People forget, we are all fallible. Even if you don't know if it is a Titan worthy offense, submit it and let us decide. It does zero harm, but not letting us know can and usually does cause problems.

It has already been stated that this concept that was introduced today has been a long time work in progress. The fact that it is coming to fruition now and not during your particular conflict is coincidental.

*****THEIR OWN ACTIONS HAVE BROUGHT THEM TO THIS POINT.*****

So? A landslide victory is boring and no fun for anyone involved. Remember that this is a game. Believe it or not, you were not actually a citizen of Caelint who was wronged. Think about the game for a moment instead of personal vendetta. You can easily stack the deck in a war like that to have an 80% chance of victory, where the other side at least has a chance to struggle and things are still up for grabs. But outnumbering your opponent 4 nobles to 1 obliterates any chance those players have to have fun, and quite honestly is no fun for your own players.

So why do it? Because it happened to you? Grow up.

Again, I am sorry for the sarcasm, but I believe that anyone who read the entire message would likely see that the part you refer to was being sarcastic.

Don't be sarcastic. You are typing to an audience from many countries and cultures. If you try to convey a point in this environment using sarcasm, it is your fault for any miscommunication. Completely ridiculous and inappropriate. Be clear and concise if you want to be taken seriously. When I read your first post, I had zero doubt that you were defending Thalmarkin. Once you explained it, I could kind of see the sarcasm upon re-reading, but the cost is you having to explain it and we have all wasted time.

[PolarRaven]

First of all, this is in no way constructive. The Devs and Admins have volunteered their time to work on the game.

You're right, that was rude of me to say.  I apologize. 
Though, it is also rude of Devlin to ignore my response (addressed to him specifically) to his inquiries and skip to commenting on the next comment/post.   
I have said this many times in the past, but will say it again,
Thanks to all the Devs and other people that make it possible for us to play this game.
With that said, I understand we get what they are willing to give (have to play the game as they offer it), but I do not have to agree with everything they implement.

I don't understand why people take this low-road when they don't get the answers they like, but it is incredibly immature and I personally have no problem calling it out as garbage behavior.

It has nothing to do with the answer I received, it was the lack of an answer while he moved on to the next part, skipping over the part that was directed specifically to his earlier mentioned concerns.  Rude will often elicit rude in return. 
Again I apologize, I should have kept it civil even though I felt he was being rude.

There is always concern for the fun of any player. That is literally what we try to do. Make the game fun and fair. That being said, the Titans and Admins do not actively police the game. It would be impossible. We rely on the community and player reports. So I ask you, was the alliance bloc system in place when this happened? If so, was Thalmarkin outside the bloc? If so, did you submit a Titan report? I can't stress this enough. If something breaks the rules, actively ruins someone's fun in a malicious way, or just seems wrong, then submit a Titan report. Don't just mention things to people. People forget, we are all fallible. Even if you don't know if it is a Titan worthy offense, submit it and let us decide. It does zero harm, but not letting us know can and usually does cause problems.

Yes, the alliance bloc system was in place at the time and no they were not outside the block limit.  Lets talk about the possible flaw in that system.
The system uses REGIONS as the measuring factor of how strong an alliance bloc is.  Regions give you resources, but it is the NOBLE count that wins a war.  At that time Thal was receiving many new players (being directed there from DISCORD as a good realm to start in).  Thal had very few regions at that time (don't recall specifically), and about 40+ nobles.  Thal had great density at that time, so it was considered a good thing and nothing to worry about.  So a Titan report was not "warranted" because no one was really abusing the system, it was the system that was flawed (in MY opinion).  Anyway, the bloc system is what it is and it's obviously here to stay.  In the end it should work for all, but there will likely be "legitimate" ways around it.

It has already been stated that this concept that was introduced today has been a long time work in progress. The fact that it is coming to fruition now and not during your particular conflict is coincidental.

Purely co-incidental.  OK, I am willing to take your word on that.

BUT, here is how it looked to me before you cleared it up:
A) This ideal is in the works (for years), on the back-burner.
B) Several months ago there was a big upset on the East Island about the ongoing "North vs South" war.
C) This ideal is now pushed to the forefront
D) The members of Thalmarkin (close to 20 on discord and about 30 in realm) complain about being gangbanged (in a war they declared/started) and threaten to quit when their own actions have finally caught up with them
E) Within a few days, the ideal is completed enough to go live.

Hate to loose so many players that are active both on discord and in game.

But since I have your word that the timing was purely co-incidental we can move on from this.

So? A landslide victory is boring and no fun for anyone involved. Remember that this is a game. Believe it or not, you were not actually a citizen of Caelint who was wronged. Think about the game for a moment instead of personal vendetta.

I can't say, I don't recall ever being part of a landslide victory, though I can assure you it was not much fun on the loosing side.
Now that I think back though, I seem to recall an awful lot of enjoyment being posted in the letters that I seen from the Thal alliance bloc players at the time both IG and on discord.  Your theory about no one enjoying a landslide victory may not be entirely accurate.
I am thinking of the game.  I have not had a noble on BT for quite a while now so I have NO personal stake in this situation.

You can easily stack the deck in a war like that to have an 80% chance of victory, where the other side at least has a chance to struggle and things are still up for grabs. But outnumbering your opponent 4 nobles to 1 obliterates any chance those players have to have fun, and quite honestly is no fun for your own players.

So why do it? Because it happened to you? Grow up.

But, the alliance bloc does not take this into account.  It is measured by REGIONS held, not nobles.
When I was in Caelint, I believe we actually were facing close to 4 to 1 (nobles) odds.  And you are right, it was not so much fun.  But as I said above, the other side seemed to be enjoying themselves.
Your statement seems to imply that this particular situation (Thal being on "the other side" of a lopsided conflict) was orchestrated by players from various other realms.  I could be wrong, but I really doubt that the rest of the continent got together and said "Hey, lets gang up on Thalmarkin and destroy that realm".
If I understand correctly, it was Thalmarkin who declared War on Caelint once again this time round.  So, really, how can this even be considered OOC powergaming as the former, missing ruler of Thalmarkin complained before he rage quit?  I can not speak for others as to why they decided to join in on the war, but as I have said previously, Thalmarkin has meddled in just about every other realms' affairs at one point or another in recent history.  Some may have questionable reasons, but some seem to have very valid reasons for wanting in on the war.
Why do it?  There are many VALID IG reasons for certain realms/nobles on BT to want a piece of Thalmarkin.  If you need specific reasons, you will need to ask them as I have not had a noble on BT for quite a while now and my current information comes from other sources (discord, forums, OOC ruler channel...)

Don't be sarcastic. You are typing to an audience from many countries and cultures. If you try to convey a point in this environment using sarcasm, it is your fault for any miscommunication. Completely ridiculous and inappropriate. Be clear and concise if you want to be taken seriously. When I read your first post, I had zero doubt that you were defending Thalmarkin. Once you explained it, I could kind of see the sarcasm upon re-reading, but the cost is you having to explain it and we have all wasted time.

Got it.  Which should be fairly obvious though since the part of my message that you have quoted also includes my apology for doing so.
"Completely ridiculous and inappropriate" ?  Well, where I come from, telling one to "Grow up" is seen in quite the same light as sarcasm.  Please keep this in mind for your future writings to this multi-cultural forum.

I am sorry that I am not perfect at conveying my point at all times on all things. 
We do the best we can when sharing ideals and sometimes things need further explanation to get a point across.
I am also sorry for wasting both your time and Devlins while trying to share my thoughts and opinions on this matter.

The funny part here, is that it seems like you are more interested in HOW the opinion is presented rather than what the actual opinion is trying to convey.

[Gildre]

Apologies, but I am going to start at the end of your post right quick.

The funny part here, is that it seems like you are more interested in HOW the opinion is presented rather than what the actual opinion is trying to convey.

100%. That is my role in this community. I am not a Dev or an Admin. Don't get me wrong, I am interested in your actual opinions, that just isn't what drew me into this.

Though, it is also rude of Devlin to ignore my response (addressed to him specifically) to his inquiries and skip to commenting on the next comment/post.

He mentioned he didn't have a lot of time and touched on the simpler subject while he could. Getting into the hockey sock of this Thal situation takes time. There are so many factors, perceptions, misconceptions, and opinions flying around that it just isn't practical to fire off a couple of opinions from the hip. I am like 97.68% sure being rude was not his intent at all.

In the end it should work for all, but there will likely be "legitimate" ways around it.

Absolutely. No one can foresee every possible avenue. If the system is circumvented, it needs to be reported. That way, if it was malicious the person can be punished, or if it was a mistake it can be fixed on the Dev side. In no way is anyone meaning to drop these update bombs and just walk away. We want to work with all the players to make the game run the best it can.

E) Within a few days, the ideal is completed enough to go live.

The issues have been global. EC, Colonies, and now BT have suffered from it. With the issues coming to a head, it definitely jumped it up the priority list, but it is in no way an effort to save Thalmarkin in any way.

In fact, there is nothing in the update that will actively prevent Thal, or any realm, from being destroyed.

Your theory about no one enjoying a landslide victory may not be entirely accurate.

Of course, you are correct. However, most players would agree that even if they are on the winning side, they would rather have more even battles that are fun and epic and wager a little risk than blindly smash an enemy without any effort. I wouldn't go around looting regions just to raise a Peasant Militia to fight. Ineffective enemies are boring.

But, the alliance bloc does not take this into account.  It is measured by REGIONS held, not nobles.

You bring up a very good point that I am going to think about.

Your statement seems to imply that this particular situation (Thal being on "the other side" of a lopsided conflict) was orchestrated by players from various other realms.

Sorry, that is not what I meant. Absolutely, all the other realms probably have their own valid reasons for wanting to fight Thal. However, the war started between Thal and Nothoi/Irondale already looked like a losing war for Thal, and then three more realms dogpiled on. Some of these realms have been sitting on their "valid" war reasons for RL years, and now they choose to claim the pound of flesh? This is just starting the engine of that steamroller that really isn't fun. Irondale and Nothoi are already getting theirs, the other realms could easily find other places to sate their appetites so that Thal/Noth/Iron can host a fun and exciting conflict.

I am not trying to defend Thal in any way, I am just pointing out opportunist actions that are detrimental to fun.

Well, where I come from, telling one to "Grow up" is seen in quite the same light as sarcasm.

I won't be apologizing for this. You have employed a very "it happened to me, so it should happen to them" attitude, all the while saying "when it happened to me it wasn't fun at all". Perhaps it would be more appropriate to lead with that and say "Hey guys, when this happened to me it REALLY sucked. Can we try to figure out something that is more healthy for the game?"

In that light, I stand by my statement.

We do the best we can when sharing ideals and sometimes things need further explanation to get a point across.
I am also sorry for wasting both your time and Devlins while trying to share my thoughts and opinions on this matter.

Please do not refrain from sharing your opinions. They are valid. We want the community to be an open and sharing place.

[PolarRaven]

This change is not specifically in regards to what happened on Beluaterra, but a response to what the developers of BattleMaster have collectively witnessed over sixteen (16) plus years of playing and watching and trying to improve the game.

If you believe you can make a better game, I encourage you to do so. The browser-based and strategy game ecosystems could use some more variety.

If you believe the admins and developers are pushing a hidden agenda, it's because we don't say often enough that we do these things because want people to enjoy the game. I apologize that we're not clearer on that.

Sorry to have put you on the "back burner" Andrew, but Gildre's reply was more in line with the ongoing conversation, so I felt it more appropriate to respond to his post first.
I haven't been around for the entire sixteen plus years, but I have been watching and playing BM for over ten years now. 

I certainly could not make a better game, mostly because I lack the programming skills required to make ANY game.
If I had those skills, I would have certainly volunteered long ago to help with the programming and development of BM.

To be clear, I did not specify "hidden" agenda.  My point was that he will do as he wishes (what he feels is best for the game) regardless of my opinion.

I understand that there can not be a game without those that are able (and willing) to program said game.
BUT, without some form of feedback from the players, it is hard to say whether or not your programming efforts are being effective.
You could program the most perfect game in the world, but if no players are interested in playing your perfect game, how good is the game you have made?

Player feedback is almost as important as the actual programming of the game itself.
Programmers who have the attitude of "this is how I programmed it so this is what you get" tend to not produce great games.
Even those programmers with the attitude of "if you can do better then make your own" tend to produce nothing more than mediocre games.

BattleMaster is a very complex game trying to meet the needs of various types of play styles.
There are anything from the warmongering tyrants who would prefer to only write "orders" for their realm to those that would rather sit in a city rolling out stories of "pretty flowers" without ever seeing a battle. 

A developer must weigh the opinions of ALL the players and gear their programming to meet the needs of as many of the different play styles as possible. 
OR
The developer can concentrate on what the developer wants to see in their game and explain to some of the players that they are playing the wrong game if that is how they want to play.
I believe that BattleMaster falls under the first description, though on occasion, the latter seems more prevalent in the decision making process.

[Wimpie]

20 out of 30 Thalmarkin members are active on Discord?

Mate, you need me to point out where they are. Because I've been talking to the same 5-6 people this entire time..
Don't make things up please.

For the rest, I don't mind you having your opinion. Some things must be said, I agree with that. And I'm not further going to comment on that because I have not been around (paused) when all of this bullying happened in the first place.

[PolarRaven]

Sorry for the confusion Wimpie.
I didn't think that I said "active", but "listed" as members of Thal on discord.
(actually, I just checked and I did say active. SORRY yet again)
I am sorry for the improper wording of my post.
I actually have no idea how active they actually are on discord (or IG for that matter). 
I am still learning the bot commands of Discord and was impressed that I actually figured out how to list the Thal members that are on Discord. 

So let me re-write it as it was meant:
From the bot command on Discord there are close to 20 members of Thal "listed" as having a Discord account.
(technically they are "active" on discord because they "activated" their discord account, but maybe they do not participate regularly)
The 30 number was garnered from the stats page which does not give exact numbers on the graph presented, so there are about 30 players "listed" as members of Thal.  Their characters are there whether they actively participate in the realm or not.


So once again, I apologize for the specific wording of my posts on the forums and would like to thank all of you have taken the time to help me correct the wording of the concepts that I have tried to share. 

Honestly though, I have been posting to the forums to try to help improve the game with ideas and concepts, not to have my writing style picked apart.  I believe that this will likely be my last post to the forums, because I have no desire to keep apologizing to people for the wording of the concepts I am trying to convey. 

I can see why so few people bother with the forums in recent times.  It is not really a welcoming environment here.