Author Topic: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best  (Read 15627 times)

Morningstar

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #15: August 02, 2011, 07:05:53 AM »
Discovery and detailing of places is one of the great things about Battlemaster, and you don't need a whole new continent created specifically to do that.

Here's something you could do right now: pick a region. Find its population. Then figure how many villages, towns and/or cities would be in it. Then write the names of some of those smaller settlements. Make up a tiny story to go with each one. Put it on the wiki, and/or forum, and go to town in it (ha, no pun intended) in roleplays.

See, I think that's what I'd throw under the "simulationist" bus where Dwilight fell.  That gets too much into the nitty gritty details.  We're not looking to have an encyclopedia full of random places and people. We're wanting to create an epic storyline and watch it take on a life of its own.

Vellos

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #16: August 03, 2011, 04:23:01 AM »
See, I think that's what I'd throw under the "simulationist" bus where Dwilight fell.  That gets too much into the nitty gritty details.  We're not looking to have an encyclopedia full of random places and people. We're wanting to create an epic storyline and watch it take on a life of its own.

The idea that a few people can make an epic storyline that everybody else will want to participate in seems a bit odd.

You create storylines by making small details and blowing them up. Pick a small town (say, Nazareth) and declare that something spectacular happened (say, God lived there). Fight and die for it.

Storylines are only epic in retrospect.
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Morningstar

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #17: August 03, 2011, 06:04:28 AM »
"Epic" was probably not the best choice of wording, but I can tell you're going to want to argue semantics, regardless.  There were dozens of nuanced story arcs created in the early days of FEI that provided opportunities for lots of people to jump in at different angles and with different perspectives. It's what made the island such an initial draw for people.

Creating something from the ground up on such a large scale quickly makes everything pretty organic in the way it plays itself out, if it's done well.  You can create a small story about a simple town and have a limited number of people feebly attempt to participate in something they can't fully dive into.  Or you can crack open a brand new drawing pad, throw open a box of crayons, and say "kids, draw a picture"- I guarantee you'll get bigger, better, and more numerous results from the second.

Daycryn

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #18: August 03, 2011, 06:31:44 AM »
The devil is in the details.

It's all good and well to want to start a large, engrossing, creative project, but it's another thing to create interesting character developments and interactions. As a writer, I find myself doing the former - starting Great New Projects - and it's a form of procrastination to avoid doing the latter.

Creating a new project appeals to people who like to create and work on large new projects. It doesn't necessarily appeal to people who like to create nuanced story arcs. Are you sure it's the latter you really want, and not the former?

Because as I said, you don't need a new island, new projects or new in-game places in order to make nuanced storylines, epic characters etc. The world IS big enough, believe it or not.

It just takes doing: writing, getting people involved. If you find roleplays aren't something people can "fully dive into" and only "feebly attempt to participate in," this is a question of dramatic interest or appeal, and general awareness of the roleplay. If it doesn't directly intrigue players MAKE it do so by affecting their characters. Drag their characters into the action kicking, screaming, and hopefully bleeding. You'll get more action with blood and sweat than with crayons.
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Morningstar

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #19: August 03, 2011, 07:22:56 AM »
It's all good and well to want to start a large, engrossing, creative project, but it's another thing to create interesting character developments and interactions. As a writer, I find myself doing the former - starting Great New Projects - and it's a form of procrastination to avoid doing the latter.

Creating a new project appeals to people who like to create and work on large new projects. It doesn't necessarily appeal to people who like to create nuanced story arcs. Are you sure it's the latter you really want, and not the former?

The original FEI history and startup intrigue was fascinating specifically because it was made up of carefully crafted, developed characters who played off of each other and whose players were constantly learning about their own characters as they went along.  No worldbuilding could truly be organic and believable if it were all about places and landmarks and ancient history. The characters within are what make the canvas pop with beauty and draw people in.

I'm finding it difficult to debate the matter with people who are saying "you're clearly doing it wrong" when my argument was "we clearly did something right and then went away from it".  I don't need anyone to tell me how to build a world or how to draw people to such a project.  We did it a few times, as mentioned in the OP.  I've written mechanics and settings for a number of tabletop RPGs personally.  It's like we're arguing different premises or something.

Maybe my inferences to the gamist/narrativist/simulationist model were overlooked and so much of what I said is not really being understood.  Maybe some are trying to "fix" my problem with the game, which wasn't the point and they're proving mine in doing so.  Or maybe I've just been away too long and am simply being reminded that some people just like to argue.  Not sure.

Daycryn

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #20: August 03, 2011, 07:51:47 AM »
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand your position as well as make mine known. Honest.

I guess my confusion is that you seem to be hearkening back to a golden age which you want to have back; whereas my position is that there was no such golden age, it's just that that early FEI was interesting and fun to you.

I admit I wasn't around for the founding of FEI. But I found realms and roleplays interesting there (and elsewhere) specifically because of what you pointed out: carefully crafted, developing characters who play off of each other.

That said, how would you describe we went away from that? I just don't see that there was indeed a 'golden age' which we somehow lost touch of at all. I see interesting (not feeble!) characters and interactions all over the place. And where I don't, I see opportunities to make them happen.

I'm not really seeking to debate or argue for the sake of it, but: creating a new "drawing pad" as it were entails a huge amount of effort by Tom and the development team. I would just like to clarify whether that is really needed, and possible workarounds for the problems it is to solve.
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De-Legro

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #21: August 03, 2011, 07:58:45 AM »
I'm not trying to argue, just trying to understand your position as well as make mine known. Honest.

I guess my confusion is that you seem to be hearkening back to a golden age which you want to have back; whereas my position is that there was no such golden age, it's just that that early FEI was interesting and fun to you.

I admit I wasn't around for the founding of FEI. But I found realms and roleplays interesting there (and elsewhere) specifically because of what you pointed out: carefully crafted, developing characters who play off of each other.

That said, how would you describe we went away from that? I just don't see that there was indeed a 'golden age' which we somehow lost touch of at all. I see interesting (not feeble!) characters and interactions all over the place. And where I don't, I see opportunities to make them happen.

I'm not really seeking to debate or argue for the sake of it, but: creating a new "drawing pad" as it were entails a huge amount of effort by Tom and the development team. I would just like to clarify whether that is really needed, and possible workarounds for the problems it is to solve.

My understanding was that the FEI, when it started was not an in game island. Thus all interaction was through the RPs. The argument is that once the island was created in game, there was a push by some players that were more focused on the game mechanic elements that gradually eroded the strong RP emphasis of the island.
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Morningstar

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #22: August 03, 2011, 08:27:09 AM »
There was something... unique about being able to follow the stories of people in other realms, and because of that, the goings on of other realms.  It was the RP list that largely made that happen. I fully recognize that not every player jumped onboard with that, but the ones that did- even if only out of vague interest- seemed to be hooked.  It was like being a part of a novel that was being written, but you only had control over your own individual aspect and so the outcome was always unknown and kept you on the edge of your seat.

Greg is absolutely right about sometimes waiting up to see just who might jump in next or waking up in a cold sweat because that speech you wanted to make on the Senate floor finally came to you.  And there was an entertainment value to it.  You wanted to keep the other players entertained.  And so there was thought put into everything that was put out there because you didn't want to disappoint.

You ask how we went away from it?  And that's where I point back to the simulationist parts of us taking over.  Instead of describing the journey from Ipsosez to Haul and perhaps even having conversations on the way with a traveling companion, eventually we had mechanics to show- without description or narrative- that we were indeed moving from Ipsosez to Haul. And if we weren't in the same region literally in mechanics-terms, interaction with a non-realm member was extremely difficult.  To the point of it ceasing altogether.  Once the mechanics were in full swing, the roleplaying on the mailing list quickly became (mostly) banter between the rulers that people wanted to make sure remained public.  And even that, after awhile, went away.  Aside from that, the rare posts were typically done when attempting to describe or initiate something intra-realm and it was the best and only way to make that happen.  Narrative was replaced by Simulation.

As the simulation began to shape the way we narrated the story, we also had a second (or third) influx of characters.  Ones that were more eager to get into the number-crunching side of things and to find out how they could best improve their standing/stats/titles/etc.  And, while there's nothing wrong with that- we all, to some degree, play games to win them.  But even more by this point, Narrative was being replaced by Game.  No longer was everyone attempting to describe what happened.  And they weren't even just letting the simulation describe the events for them.  Now we had those who were looking to specifically make the game mechanics do something for them that is anathema to the "Story First" crowd- win.

And because we had all largely abandoned the thing that had once kept the story going (the unifying mailing list), the ones who wanted to focus on "story" felt detached and cut off.  I remember big arguments coming about around this time that the "strategy players are taking over and can't we do something to make them actually roleplay?"  The reaction, obviously, was "We are roleplaying. We're playing our roles as if we were the character. This is what I would do!" 

The big divide of "RPers" and "Strat players" squared off, like they usually do.  "It's pointless to have to try to read through someone's 4 pages of drivel about how their mommies were mean to them and their brother took all the good candy. Just play the damn game!" came from one side, while "They're ruining my story because all they care about is the numbers. That's not what real roleplaying is!" was shouted back.

The problem is, and has always been, that this game at its core is a simulation.  It at least used to say that flat out somewhere in the early descriptions, and probably still does.  Everything about the mechanics is to simulate actual events and put it in text format for people to read and interpret.  And coming at this from two opposite ends of the spectrum are crowds who want to "beat the game and get the highest score" or "I want to develop an incredibly original character idea about a pirate captain who has personality quirks, hates to lose his hat, and can't seem to keep track of his ship- and no it's not been done before!"  Both are playing the "roleplaying game". Both are playing it the way they know how.  But both don't always see eye to eye on how to go about that.

Gamists had an outlet with the South Islands and now with the War Islands mini game.  FEI originated as a haven for the Narrativist, but I just gave you the evolution of the island and hopefully nobody disagrees that it hasn't been that in a long time.

Hopefully I did a better job of explaining myself.  I'm not looking for massive overhauls to the game in order to make things "interesting and fun to me".  I like the game (always have) for what it is.  I'm just pointing out that there was a number of longtime players- many who had been around since 2004 or some even the full duration of BM's existence- who found the startup of FEI to be the single greatest thing to happen to the game.  And we'd like a chance to try that again in some capacity.

As for a new drawing pad taking up way too much time for Tom and the devs... well, for one, a number of those interested in such a project are devs. They can decide for themselves what they can handle.  And two, did you miss the part about SM and FEI both starting off as nothing but a freeform mailing list?  ;)

Morningstar

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #23: August 03, 2011, 08:28:09 AM »
My understanding was that the FEI, when it started was not an in game island. Thus all interaction was through the RPs. The argument is that once the island was created in game, there was a push by some players that were more focused on the game mechanic elements that gradually eroded the strong RP emphasis of the island.

Or this if my last post was tl:dr

Stue (DC)

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #24: August 03, 2011, 10:14:42 AM »
Could it come to conclusion that none of described extremes is good, but good balance between "strategy" and "rp"-ing is what can bring quality of gameplay?


Tom

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #25: August 03, 2011, 01:48:55 PM »
I've been working on some changes that should return more narrative to the game for a long time now.

Unfortunately, over the years the BM codebase has become a pretty horrible mess. We're working on cleaning that up now, which is a requirement for some of the more interesting changes to actually ever be finished.


Indirik

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #26: August 03, 2011, 01:58:48 PM »
I'm just pointing out that there was a number of longtime players- many who had been around since 2004 or some even the full duration of BM's existence- who found the startup of FEI to be the single greatest thing to happen to the game.  And we'd like a chance to try that again in some capacity.
So you're looking to start a forum-based RP storyline that takes place on an island that does not exist as playable BattleMaster island? It definitely sounds interesting. I've never participated in any kind of forum-based RP myself. Rather than argue with people about what you're trying to do, why not head over to the RP board, and start defining your project? People can join in, or not, as they see fit.
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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #27: August 03, 2011, 02:03:14 PM »
I've been working on some changes that should return more narrative to the game for a long time now.

Unfortunately, over the years the BM codebase has become a pretty horrible mess. We're working on cleaning that up now, which is a requirement for some of the more interesting changes to actually ever be finished.

How is the code clean up progressing btw? I can imagine it beeing quite frustrating.

Also what kind of changes you had in mind for improving narrative? It's something i sincerely aplaud.
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Bedwyr

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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #28: August 03, 2011, 02:03:32 PM »
I'd be up for it as well, sounds like fun to me.
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Re: Worldbuilding - BattleMaster at its best
« Reply #29: August 03, 2011, 02:35:51 PM »
You ask how we went away from it?  And that's where I point back to the simulationist parts of us taking over.  Instead of describing the journey from Ipsosez to Haul and perhaps even having conversations on the way with a traveling companion, eventually we had mechanics to show- without description or narrative- that we were indeed moving from Ipsosez to Haul. And if we weren't in the same region literally in mechanics-terms, interaction with a non-realm member was extremely difficult.  To the point of it ceasing altogether.  Once the mechanics were in full swing, the roleplaying on the mailing list quickly became (mostly) banter between the rulers that people wanted to make sure remained public.  And even that, after awhile, went away.  Aside from that, the rare posts were typically done when attempting to describe or initiate something intra-realm and it was the best and only way to make that happen.  Narrative was replaced by Simulation.

As the simulation began to shape the way we narrated the story, we also had a second (or third) influx of characters.  Ones that were more eager to get into the number-crunching side of things and to find out how they could best improve their standing/stats/titles/etc.  And, while there's nothing wrong with that- we all, to some degree, play games to win them.  But even more by this point, Narrative was being replaced by Game.  No longer was everyone attempting to describe what happened.  And they weren't even just letting the simulation describe the events for them.  Now we had those who were looking to specifically make the game mechanics do something for them that is anathema to the "Story First" crowd- win.


If I understand correctly, you're looking for somewhere to have a group of people write a joint story, about their characters in a Battlemaster-type world.  But you don't want to be constrained and/or diverted by the in-game actions.

If so, then is there anything to stop you just creating a new Island name, starting a thread for it in the Roleplay area of this forum, and just letting people add to it?  It sounds as if you don't need anything other than pen and paper to write this sort of story, and you have the electronic version of both on this forum.


Meanwhile, the beauty, for me, of Battlemaster is that it _does_ provide some in-game actions to constrain me.  I like to be constrained.  Coming back to your crayon analogy, if you give me a bunch of crayons and a blank piece of paper, I just sit and look at it with a blank expression, having no idea where to start and the overwhelming number of options of things I could draw make me struggle to choose any of them.  Whereas if you give me a piece of paper that already has a load of odd lines all over it, and you give me only three colours, then I have a challenge: to make something interesting and beautiful out of what I have.  That is a challenge I will enjoy rising to.

I don't want to have an island that has no defined landmarks, where I can decide to put my character wherever I choose, and do whatever he wants.  I want the game to help me by giving me region names and descriptions to elaborate on.  I want it to tell me what happened in battles so I can expand on that.  I want to know who is in my region and who isn't so I know who I can talk to and who I should write to, and to give me an idea where I might travel to next.


There's nothing in Battlemaster now that stops you from roleplaying your journey from Ipsosez to Haul and having conversations on the way - one of my characters did just that last week between two regions.  All it meant was that I had to try to time my roleplays to coincide with when I was actually in the region (which wasn't too hard to do, and even if I missed it by a bit, I could just start the RP with [yesterday afternoon...] to make it make sense.

Although there are a number of players who get so engrossed in the game mechanics that they just press the buttons and read the automatic outputs, there is nothing to stop people from narrating it.  You don't _have_ to post a scout report as a scout report link and nothing else.  You could, if you so chose, read the scout report, translate it into a narrative, and send that, and not show anyone the actual scout report at all.  Same with pretty much any report you might get.  Similarly, although when odd bugs happen, a lot of people just write OOC messages saying "lol, bug there", you can perfectly well roleplay them out.

Perhaps if more people roleplayed that sort of thing (especially realm-wide so that newer players copied a bit) then it might happen more.  Would obviously take a few people to do it, and would take time, same as it took time to get to where we are now compared to where we started.


It is within our power to bring more narrative to Battlemaster by writing more, and better, but if you actually want the completely blank starting point, then why not ignore the game, and use the forum?