Oh, Itaulond...

[Stue (DC)]

Itaulond doesn't stand much chance of surviving.

of course, i have to agree with that; nevertheless, i sincerely hope there are players who are not discouraged by "doesn't stand much chance". people, especially new guys, should know that such circumstances sometimes provide quicker learning curve for character, possibility to experience some things before those who take mid-stream path, and sort of fun with adventure not available elsewhere.

[Indirik]

...especially new guys...

Are we really going to have that many new players, who don't really understand the game, trawling that deeply through the forums before choosing a realm to play in? And if the answer really is "Yes", then shouldn't they be given a realistic idea of the realms they could join? I know I'd really be disappointed if I was reading the forums, and heard all kinds of positive things about a realm, then joined it only to find out the realm was run by four people, desperately short on everything, hated by all its neighbors, and on the verge of total collapse with there being nothing I can do about it. The only "learning experience" there is that I really need to learn about how to pick better realms.

[Stue (DC)]

Are we really going to have that many new players, who don't really understand the game, trawling that deeply through the forums before choosing a realm to play in? And if the answer really is "Yes", then shouldn't they be given a realistic idea of the realms they could join? I know I'd really be disappointed if I was reading the forums, and heard all kinds of positive things about a realm, then joined it only to find out the realm was run by four people, desperately short on everything, hated by all its neighbors, and on the verge of total collapse with there being nothing I can do about it. The only "learning experience" there is that I really need to learn about how to pick better realms.

with such stance "pick the right side" we have nobles migrating at first signs of serious trouble in the realm, and we have realms joining ooc parties, both processes resulting in disappearance of fun in the moment when fun should begin. avoiding challenge is formula for boredom.

in similar way, many realms who "have everyhing good" under that criteria are ultimately boring places, and there are numbers of player who leave the game without reaching complete idea what game can offer.

game can offer many things in my opinion, and would be much richer without any devs intervention if players would apply different approaches more.

i feel you want to discourage such other approaches.

personally i would rather spent my time in three falling realms than in three overly established ones where no any serious changes ever happen, whatever you do.

and, yes, it is possible to learn much more in such realms than in "good" realms where nobles receive two marshal orders per day over their whole first rl year.

[vanKaya]

I don't think Indirik was saying Itaulond, our any near dying realn, is inherently not fun. He was just saying that people need to be given a realistic assessment of what the realm is like, in this case, on the brink of destruction.

A challenge is fun but not everyone wants to start a char in a place like that. On the other hand, by giving an accurate description of Itaulond, ie. brink of destruction, you might attract just the kind of players who you're talking about, that thrive on such a challenge.

[Kain]

I don't think Indirik was saying Itaulond, our any near dying realn, is inherently not fun. He was just saying that people need to be given a realistic assessment of what the realm is like, in this case, on the brink of destruction.

A challenge is fun but not everyone wants to start a char in a place like that. On the other hand, by giving an accurate description of Itaulond, ie. brink of destruction, you might attract just the kind of players who you're talking about, that thrive on such a challenge.

I think realm morale has a lot to do with everything. As many of you know, my first char ever was created in Avamar on EC, which had only Avamar city and it was at war with the most powerful realm on the continent (Sirion) which just happend to also be their closest neighbour. But we had two thing going for us and that is that we had damn good defenses (high walls and lots of millita in Avamar city), and that we had powerful allies like Oligarch, Perdan and Rancagua (less powerful but still). The enemies were also Fontan and Old Rancagua and the whole island was very divided into two large alliences. I don't advocate that but it sure was good for a small realm because if there are only two alliences fighting each other, the enemy of your enemy is your friend and that is all there is.

Morale was never low and everyone chatted like crazy.

At the same time I've experienced the doom and gloom-attitude many times in other realms. Realms that initially are big but lose wars badly and fall apart to become a shadow of what they used to be (in power and land). They usually also take the hit in morale that comes with it and that is the deepest blow of all. It usually ends up with realms that are almost completely quiet, where all hope is shining with it's absence.

So how is the morale in Itaulond? Do they have fun with their "challenge the high and mighty" or do they just wait to die?

[Indirik]

with such stance "pick the right side" we have nobles migrating at first signs of serious trouble in the realm, and we have realms joining ooc parties, both processes resulting in disappearance of fun in the moment when fun should begin. avoiding challenge is formula for boredom.

None of which is related in any way to what I said.

I've been in realm on the verge of extinction before. And in realms that were holding on by their fingernails. So, been there, done that. Can they be fun? Sure. We had a blast in Kingdom of Alluran back when we had maybe 1.5 regions. And the 0.5th region changed on a daily basis. But a realm like, for example, Itaulond, is NOT the kind of realm I would suggest a new player join. I personally don't think that's the kind of experience that would present BattleMaster's best side. Doubly true if the new player was joining it because he thought it would be a cool place to see lots of action.

in similar way, many realms who "have everyhing good" under that criteria are ultimately boring places, and there are numbers of player who leave the game without reaching complete idea what game can offer.

Under what criteria? I sure didn't list any criteria.

game can offer many things in my opinion, and would be much richer without any devs intervention if players would apply different approaches more.

i feel you want to discourage such other approaches.

What dev intervention are you talking about?

Discourage what approaches?

personally i would rather spent my time in three falling realms than in three overly established ones where no any serious changes ever happen, whatever you do.

For an experienced player, that's great. Pick whatever realm you want. Go for any play style you care to engage in.

But I would not recommend deliberately choosing a realm that never really got established, has abysmal prospects for survival, has only four other nobles in it, and probably won't be alive two months from now to a brand new player trying to figure out what the game is about. Especially not when that play style is not what they expected, based on some random forum postings that promised a rich, dynamic, diverse play experience. If they read that it's a realm on the verge of going under without divine intervention, and still decide to go ahead and join, that's great.

and, yes, it is possible to learn much more in such realms than in "good" realms where nobles receive two marshal orders per day over their whole first rl year.

Better to get two orders per day than to get no messages at all for nearly the entire month following joining the realm. Which is an experience I had myself not too long ago.

[Indirik]

So how is the morale in Itaulond? Do they have fun with their "challenge the high and mighty" or do they just wait to die?

I'm not so sure that any of the four of them are frequent forum visitors. Maybe Lilwolf ... ?

[Stue (DC)]

I've been in realm on the verge of extinction before. And in realms that were holding on by their fingernails. So, been there, done that. Can they be fun? Sure. We had a blast in Kingdom of Alluran back when we had maybe 1.5 regions. And the 0.5th region changed on a daily basis. But a realm like, for example, Itaulond, is NOT the kind of realm I would suggest a new player join. I personally don't think that's the kind of experience that would present BattleMaster's best side. Doubly true if the new player was joining it because he thought it would be a cool place to see lots of action.

the funny thing is that all the difference is coming from new players who would eventually join. so if some new players, do join, some interesting things will be possible, and that is also excellent opportunity for nobles to feel how their presence means much. the fact that there are only 4 nobles just means that 4-5 new nobles would change things radically and offer many experiences.

the fact that some badass enemy can come and destroy everything only adds to thrill to anyone who wants somewhat different approach, and achieving something, anything against odds can also provide incomparably larger satisfaction compared to very predictable wars.

as everyone can have at least one more character, even newest nobles could be able to compare depth bm can provide by joining one typically successful realm and one which looks as hopeless. is that not complete diapason of depth?

What dev intervention are you talking about?

that's my wording i was thinking of tweaks - even without any further efforts of devs with tweaks, game could prove itself to be much deeper only if more players adopt different approaches to gamplay, of course being completely within fair-play practice

Discourage what approaches?

my personal feeling of approach you seem to be presenting is something like ultimate pragmatism, like "i want to be on winning side all the time, i want to win every day, every turn, and everything which obstructs me in that path should be abandoned as it is stupid"

my approach is something like "i will try to develop some story, any story, good or bad, impressive or grey with my char and will true to pursue it, winning or losing fun will be the same as long as others also belong to some story and we cooperate". that is something like RP approach, but without sending long green letters, but rather by living your characters within some role.

i met enough people in game who pursue such kind of approach but also see how it is currently overpowered to the bones, and it is to be feared that these forums contribute that.

to go back to forum-level discussion at its basics - are you really sure that all players want straightforward path? i believe they don't. if new guy is able to witness how things work is one established realm would it not be better if he is able to see radically different type of story as soon as possible, before he begins to believe straightforward way is the only way? of course some find themselves in straightforward way and such guys simply do not need anything else. but some others do not, and if they hear the same kind of advertising and approach whenever they go (on these forums) they can come to wrong conclusion how nothing else is available in game.

Better to get two orders per day than to get no messages at all for nearly the entire month following joining the realm. Which is an experience I had myself not too long ago.

i have number of such experiences but am sure we are all clever enough to recognize when we need to go. what is trouble with trying? all you can lose is some time for some of you chars, and you can win some different experience eventually.

[Indirik]

the funny thing is that all the difference is coming from new players who would eventually join. so if some new players, do join, some interesting things will be possible, and that is also excellent opportunity for nobles to feel how their presence means much. the fact that there are only 4 nobles just means that 4-5 new nobles would change things radically and offer many experiences.

Sorry, but I completely disagree with you. I don't think that the play experience a new player could get right now in Itaulond is the kind of experience that a brand new player should get for his first realm.

the fact that some badass enemy can come and destroy everything only adds to thrill to anyone who wants somewhat different approach, and achieving something, anything against odds can also provide incomparably larger satisfaction compared to very predictable wars.

Perhaps if you're the kind of player that likes sitting a realm that can't do anything, has no gold, can't recruit a meaningful army, is hated by everyone around it, and is just waiting for the executioner's axe to fall (or the next 3K CS monster group), then Itaulond is for you. Somehow, I highly doubt that this is the experience that a new player wants. And, after all, we're talking about new players here.

that's my wording i was thinking of tweaks - even without any further efforts of devs with tweaks, game could prove itself to be much deeper only if more players adopt different approaches to gamplay, of course being completely within fair-play practice

Sure, the game could be more diverse if players do different things. But that has absolutely nothing to do with brand new players joining hopeless realms. Brand new players aren't what Itaulond needs to survive. If it wants to survive, it needs to either cooperate with its neighbors (which, let's be honest, isn't going to happen until Amandil leaves), or get a huge infusion of *experienced* players. And these experienced players are not going to let my random comments on the forum influence them. Heck, some of them may take it as a challenge.

my personal feeling of approach you seem to be presenting is something like ultimate pragmatism, like "i want to be on winning side all the time, i want to win every day, every turn, and everything which obstructs me in that path should be abandoned as it is stupid"

So you think I'm here on the forums trying to metagame people into not joining realms that stand in my way?

to go back to forum-level discussion at its basics - are you really sure that all players want straightforward path?

All players? Of course not. But, again, that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Which is new players being influenced forum discussions about realms. We want new players to have good experiences. As many as possible, as quickly as possible. My personal feeling is that a realm such as Itaulond would not provide that. It has absolutely nothing to do with my characters or their IC goals. I have been know to recommend to new players that they not join certain realms that my characters are in, or to join realms that my characters are currently fighting. Because I think those realms do or do not offer a good play experience, not because their choice would somehow help me win the game.

[Stue (DC)]

So you think I'm here on the forums trying to metagame people into not joining realms that stand in my way?

lol, it is not first time that you are presenting some of my thoughts as accusations, always with some surreal logical link.

if you look at my post, you can only find that i tried to describe two different in-game approaches, and i cannot see how would i relate you with metagaming. in that respect, all forum discussions classified as locals could fall into the same category if you would insist on such logic.

as regards to our discussion, we can have different opinions and stay with them. i have no doubt that new people could find both fun and learning even if the whole thing would end in ultimate fall after a while, but that solely depends on some new people coming.

this is nothing but my pesonal opinion and is based on some years spend in mentoring - players who want all the fun at once, everything perfect and prospective all the time are often those who do not stay in game for long.

[LilWolf]

Itaulond can be quite the opportunity. With so few nobles you're almost guaranteed to get a region or council position. If you get a region, well, if things go badly you can always just join the side that seems to be winning and play the "I just joined the realm! I have no clue about the events before then!" card.