Author Topic: Religions  (Read 42768 times)

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Re: Religions
« Reply #15: March 05, 2011, 10:54:26 PM »
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Blood_Cult

...and that took a *great* deal of work to make it into what it became, and even then we discovered the "state religions" such as Order of the Golden Feather and that sham of a religion Enweil came up with were very, very, very difficult to penetrate.

Qyrvaggism, in Beluaterra, used to have holidays that were periodically celebrated, as well as rules on when wars were allowed to be fought. Not so anymore, at least as far as I can tell.

Qyrvaggism used to have a lot that it no longer does, so far as I can tell. It's somewhat disheartening to have seen such a well fleshed-out religion diminish like Qyrvaggism has.

Quote
I've always enjoyed Way of the Warrior Saints in Atamara as well, though I felt it was underused.

Which reminds me of the Barony's Hörgr of Makar, which is something I've always intended to flesh out myself or come up with a replacement... maybe it's time I got around to that...

Edit: Good lord, the page still has the filler text I used when I first created it!
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Re: Religions
« Reply #16: March 05, 2011, 11:27:41 PM »
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Via_of_Filiolus

I'm trying to revive this religion, with some success. It used to have 25 members--all of Wetham--but when Wetham fell, is shrank rapidly to 8 members in Giblot. Recently, I had my second char become a priestess, and the religion has gone from 2 temples to 4, and added 2 members as well.

I'd like for the religion to reclaim its' former glory, and even spread beyond Giblot. The problem, of course, is that the other realms have their own state religions, and convincing them to give them up is not going to be easy--anyone have any experience with that?

I'd like to flesh out the religion, but I'm unsure what to add. Outer Tilog has the "evil" religion role already, the Colonies don't need a second one. Festivals, mentioned earlier in the thread, sound like a good idea.

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Re: Religions
« Reply #17: March 06, 2011, 05:53:39 AM »
I think there are a few things that would vastly improve religions.  Not all of these are required, but would be quite helpful.

1. Deep mythos that makes some sort of sense.
2. Actual rituals and observances for the religion to make people feel as if being a part of it means something.
3. Specific goals (convert everyone, destroy this evil, support this good).
4. Concrete stands on various issues (no one gets fired up for wishy-washy religions).

All of these can and are done in some religions. Did it with the Blood Cult, seen it elsewhere. There's only so much you can do with text to really make people feel like they are doing something, and not writing something.
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Chenier

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Re: Religions
« Reply #18: March 06, 2011, 05:55:00 AM »
Because so much of religions lies in the RP, a "good" religion is one that gives people something that they can get their RP teeth into.  It's hard to get excited about promoting an empty faith.  Our BM faiths need the same things that real world faiths have (albeit on a smaller scale!)

1) Stories (particularly origin stories, tales of gods and heroes)
2) Rules and Rituals (dietary restrictions, body modifications, ways to pray, how to dress, who to hate)
3) Holidays and Celebrations
4) Philosophy (Why are we here?  Where are we going?  How do we get there?)
5) Prophecy  (The end of days!  The Chosen One!)

Yet those that satisfy these criteria are usually marginal while those who are successful typically satisfy none of these.
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Re: Religions
« Reply #19: March 06, 2011, 06:09:14 AM »
Yet those that satisfy these criteria are usually marginal while those who are successful typically satisfy none of these.

Interesting to say that, examples of each?

And if these aren't keys to success, what would you say are?
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Chenier

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Re: Religions
« Reply #20: March 06, 2011, 06:18:26 AM »
...and that took a *great* deal of work to make it into what it became, and even then we discovered the "state religions" such as Order of the Golden Feather and that sham of a religion Enweil came up with were very, very, very difficult to penetrate.

Qyrvaggism used to have a lot that it no longer does, so far as I can tell. It's somewhat disheartening to have seen such a well fleshed-out religion diminish like Qyrvaggism has.

Which reminds me of the Barony's Hörgr of Makar, which is something I've always intended to flesh out myself or come up with a replacement... maybe it's time I got around to that...

Edit: Good lord, the page still has the filler text I used when I first created it!

I've heard good things of what Qyrvaggism used to be, though I never witnessed it myself.

As for The Blood Cult, I'm proud of what I accomplished, but I lost too many core members of the team and it has now degraded to being somewhat like Qyrvaggism (mind you with a lot more developped texts and philosophies).

The mythology for the cult was part just making stuff up by myself without any debate or the like, sure. Didn't have much of a choice, though, except for our short-lived golden age we were always rather limited in membership. It did, though, result in great study of aztec mythology and society. I adapted my own version, but it has a lot of common elements with the real thing. I managed to get a certain understanding of the aztec way of life and philosophy, and therefore engineered different contexts to produce similar results. Then, a second part was just adding random elements. After all, you need a foundation to grow upon, so some aspects were chosen just for the randomness of it to eventually create interesting theological questioning and debate. For example, the Cult always proned blood sacrifices, but it was confronted with the serious question of what to make of the Servants of the Light when they showed up and started asking it. A pity the Netherworld had slain all of the other elders with whom I could have argued over this by then. Another very important factor was IG realities. Actually, it was probably the biggest factor of them all. Our myths evolved from the BT invasions, and everything caused by NPC actions on the other islands. Some myths record GM events that I believe almost everyone has already forgotten, in its own way. Other events are just straight up in the archives.

Finally, the Blood Cult lore and especially philosophy had an important chunk of deduction. Using multiple elements of lore existing from wherever and producing new knowledge from it. That's how the libraries (what's on the wiki and what was unfotunately never saved) was formed.

So what's a good religion? A well-thought of and developed religion, even if it is so marginal it has no impact on the continent? A religion with a vague concept of stars affecting your mind but has an imposing impact on the continent?

I personally feel religions aren't given the love they require. Great effort were made to make oaths matter, but nobody really bothered to try to make people care about religion. The way I see it, a lot of people, either directly or indirectly, enjoy the impacts of interesting religions on the game but since there are no game-mechanics reasoning for them to submit to one, they'll never bother participating. And for as long as so many people don't care enough to participate, religions won't become meaningful.
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Iltaran

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Re: Religions
« Reply #21: March 06, 2011, 06:20:51 AM »
Well, it can rather depend what you mean by successful. To be successful in terms of having lots of followers (both noble and commoner) and big temples, then really all you need is backing of a suitably well established realm. If you mean successful in terms of being fun and active in character, then you need a group of committed and active people who are willing to really drive things.
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Chenier

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Re: Religions
« Reply #22: March 06, 2011, 06:28:01 AM »
Interesting to say that, examples of each?

And if these aren't keys to success, what would you say are?

Eretzism, Order of the Druids, the Church of the Dragon, Hemaism... etc. All these faiths took over a whole realm, when not more, with very little theological content. The religions I've seen with satisfactory content never manage to really get a majority anywhere.

The Blood Cult did get a majority in one realm and thriving (though rotating) minorities in many others, but I consider there is something dramatically wrong one needs to put the amount of effort I did to get such results. In the end, I think my efforts into developing the Cult into something respectful granted more pleasure to our opponents (in the form of having something to do, and that something not being against a faceless and boring opponent) than it did to our members. In fact, my realizing this, in conjunction with losing all the other major players, is what caused the Cult to steadily decline over the last months (year? not too sure, I'd have to look up the archives for that).

A problem with faiths is that the more values and doctrine you add to them, the less people can fit in the mold. That's why national faiths are so vague, so that everyone, no matter what they think, can "fit in".

So really, we have two questions to ask ourselves. What is a *good* religion, and what is a *successful* religion, knowing that faiths are usually one or the other, if not neither... and which is best? Good religions that are too exclusive to gain significant power, or religions with significant power but no reason to ever use it?
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Re: Religions
« Reply #23: March 06, 2011, 08:42:28 AM »
The biggest problem with religion is when priests need a permit from a region’s lord. That prevents freedom of religion, or real competition among religions.

When priests lack freedom to preach or build churches, there is not much interesting for them to do within game mechanics. Prohibiting priests from doing their work defeats their choice of class.

Is that fair?

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Re: Religions
« Reply #24: March 06, 2011, 10:20:09 AM »
A problem with faiths is that the more values and doctrine you add to them, the less people can fit in the mold. That's why national faiths are so vague, so that everyone, no matter what they think, can "fit in".

This. This is what has always bothered me. Vanilla religions have the advantage, because "specialized" products, like mythologies, unique religious structures, interesting moral positions, gain nothing, yet may alienate some people. They have a hard time mobilizing passionate players, but an easy enough time surviving with members.
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Re: Religions
« Reply #25: March 06, 2011, 11:37:13 AM »
The biggest problem with religion is when priests need a permit from a region’s lord. That prevents freedom of religion, or real competition among religions.

When priests lack freedom to preach or build churches, there is not much interesting for them to do within game mechanics. Prohibiting priests from doing their work defeats their choice of class.

Is that fair?

This is indeed a good question. And I would be in favor of allowing religious freedom everywhere so this battle can take place, but given the political benefits of retaining the faith of the lord as the majority many people just don't want to bother with unwanted priests.
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Re: Religions
« Reply #26: March 06, 2011, 01:37:40 PM »
The biggest problem with religion is when priests need a permit from a region’s lord. That prevents freedom of religion, or real competition among religions.

When priests lack freedom to preach or build churches, there is not much interesting for them to do within game mechanics. Prohibiting priests from doing their work defeats their choice of class.

Is that fair?

You need permission from a region lord because he /owns/ that land (or controls it on behalf of the realm/ruler...save that debate for another thread.)  It does make it harder to get your priestly foot in the door, but there's nothing unfair about it.  Priest class is different; it says so right on the tin:  This class is strongly a roleplaying class. There is less to do in game terms than for other classes, but more options for interaction and roleplaying.

I think a lot of the "vanilla" religions have just been around a long time.  Some (most?) since the introduction of religion when (I've heard) realms scrambled around to set up "state religions" to combat the incursion of other realms' state faiths.  They truck along because they're there.  People join the "official" faith to be political or because they want the religion RP aspect and that's what's there.  That's a lot of dead weight to move out of the way.
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Re: Religions
« Reply #27: March 06, 2011, 04:31:00 PM »
This. This is what has always bothered me. Vanilla religions have the advantage, because "specialized" products, like mythologies, unique religious structures, interesting moral positions, gain nothing, yet may alienate some people. They have a hard time mobilizing passionate players, but an easy enough time surviving with members.

Personally, I think we should force religions to adopt a series of theological stances. Is the faith monotheistic or polytheistic? Is there an afterlife or not? What are the names of the gods? How was the world created?

This should all be game mechanics. Religions should be *forced* to adopt positions that will be saved. A series of questions on key theological questions needing answers of at least 1500 words be asked at the founding.

Since vanilla religions can too easily fit everyone in, we should just force some flavour into them, so that they lose their edge over developed religions (who will then shine for their activity and increased investment).

Wouldn't solve everything, but it'd be a damn good start.
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Vellos

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Re: Religions
« Reply #28: March 06, 2011, 05:08:48 PM »
This should all be game mechanics. Religions should be *forced* to adopt positions that will be saved. A series of questions on key theological questions needing answers of at least 1500 words be asked at the founding.

Since vanilla religions can too easily fit everyone in, we should just force some flavour into them, so that they lose their edge over developed religions (who will then shine for their activity and increased investment).

I believe I proposed this on the D-list a long time ago.

It's a neat idea, but difficult to implement. Though maybe if we collaboratively came up with 8 or 10 "doctrine" fields with 3-4 options each?

I've also thought about if doctrinal differences should have effects ("Peasants in Keplerstan riot in the streets about whether there is an afterlife or not, Boogeyists say there is, Garbleists say there isn't"), but I ultimately don't think so. It'd be fiendishly hard to code.

I think the only game-effects should be penalties for lack of doctrines (failure to select an option).
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Re: Religions
« Reply #29: March 06, 2011, 06:11:01 PM »
I've always been fond of the Chaos Requiem, and though lacking in creativity for a long time in its doctrine, its members and the conflicts they brought with them were always fun.

Speaking of which, I am updating the doctrine, and come a long way since the days of the Diablo 2 ripoff. Its now heavily based on a modified christian demonology, which I have recently begun researching to bring more flavor to the CR.

Behold:

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/The_Chaos_Requiem
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