New Estate System

[Shenron]

We've tried adding resources before. Maybe we should have another go at that. Without the whole trading thing. That's another aspect of the game I'm no longer sure about. Maybe adding trade was an overcomplication that doesn't really add to the game?

This is an interesting thought. While trade has no doubt has definitely added a layer to politics and gameplay and I think it's possible it might be excluding players who don't wish to go to that level of complication. Then the players that do want to go into all the nitty gritty are largely benefitted.

Perhaps we need to level the playing field?  ???

[Tom]

I was thinking more in terms of gameplay. Historically, many realms would have peace for long stretches of time until such pressure occurred; that's also the kind of thing that makes for poor gameplay.

We can play with timelines more easily than in reality. We can make sure pressures appear in quicker succession than decades and centuries.

[vonGenf]

We can play with timelines more easily than in reality. We can make sure pressures appear in quicker succession than decades and centuries.

You can stretch it down, but there is a limit of human nature to consider.

Take the example of human ressources. You could make it so that you need iron to build swords. Realms would need to secure iron mines. A realm that doesn't have iron mines will start wars to get them, and will want to deny them to their neighbors. But it must be possible for a realm to conquer an iron mine and deny it to its enemies - if it's impossible, why go to war? But if it's possible, it will happen. And once it happens, there is no more pressure.

In the real world, there is always pressure because needs are shifting. At some point it's iron, then it's coal. This could be simulated in BM - to keep it simple, make ressource exhaustible and have new mines discovered once in a while. But how fast do you want this to happen?

If you have a problem with a realm being at peace for not even a month, then that's the timescale you want to have, but I argue this defeats the purpose. In the real world, realms go to war for ressources because they think the long term benefits of gaining this ressource outweighs the cost of the war. You can make it go faster, but you can't go against this cost calculation.

If a realm must break the alliance that has protected it for ages to gain a ressource that they will only enjoy for 4 RL weeks, they won't do it. If they can keep the ressource for 3 RL years, they will do it, but you will end up with larger realms so that everyone has access to ressources.

Unless you make it so that the ressources available scale with the number of realms, such that there is always some missing? That would seem artificial, but it may work.

[Indirik]

We've tried adding resources before. Maybe we should have another go at that. Without the whole trading thing. That's another aspect of the game I'm no longer sure about. Maybe adding trade was an overcomplication that doesn't really add to the game?

You mean having regions generate resources, and the realms only being able to use those resources if they own the region? That would surely drive realms toward taking strategic regions due to the resources they provide.

I guess the question is how much would this add to the game in attracting/keeping players vs. how many players would we lose due to dropping trading? I have tried the trader game myself, and decided it really wasn't for me.

[Ramiel]

Everyone talks of wanting constant war... I dare say that occupationally  a few realms just want to have a bit of peace so that they can rebuild everything before going at it again...

[Shenron]

Everyone talks of wanting constant war... I dare say that occupationally  a few realms just want to have a bit of peace so that they can rebuild everything before going at it again...

To this end TMP should be much less present in general.

[Anaris]

To this end TMP should be much less present in general.

As I have said before, the versions of TMP currently under discussion amongst the devs resemble what you think of as TMP very, very little.

[Shenron]

As I have said before, the versions of TMP currently under discussion amongst the devs resemble what you think of as TMP very, very little.

Whoops. Sorry for being impatient. It must be annoying, I often forget things are being worked on.   :-[

[LilWolf]

You mean having regions generate resources, and the realms only being able to use those resources if they own the region? That would surely drive realms toward taking strategic regions due to the resources they provide.

While it sounds fun and realistic, I doubt it would be. It would be yet another layer of complexity on the game that could go wrong since balancing such a system would be a nightmare.

Seriously, the game used to be dead simple as far as getting started and keeping things running went. It was fun and care free. Then we got the push towards duchies, oaths, the new tax system, various realism addition that, while realistic, didn't really make the game much more fun.

You've pushed responsibilities on people who generally don't seem to want to deal with them(food being a major one with regard to lords).

You've pushed the responsibility of getting an income on the new players instead of it being automatic like it used to be. The new estate system won't fix that issue as far as I can see though it might mitigate it..maybe.

The push for duchies to be prominent seems to be pretty much a failure to me. They're too small units and just about anyone will choose their realm over the duchy because it is the realm that provides all the fun and atmosphere in 99% of the cases. Start pushing for the realm as a team again since that actually has a chance of working.

There are lots of these things that eat away at players fun. Look back to how the game worked in 2004-2005 or so and learn from that. I suppose what I'm trying to say is..instead of further making the game complex, simplify instead, see how the players actually play the game and try to support that instead of trying to force them play a certain way.

[vonGenf]

I see the new system will be going live today. Will Lord characters need to be in their own realms to change estates? I had expected it would take a few more weeks, I'm far.....

[Indirik]

While it sounds fun and realistic, I doubt it would be. It would be yet another layer of complexity on the game that could go wrong since balancing such a system would be a nightmare.

Yeah, it would be hard. I'm not going to disagree on that. It would take some work to set up.

You've pushed responsibilities on people who generally don't seem to want to deal with them(food being a major one with regard to lords).

I agree with this. I'm a big proponent of lords being able to turn food responsibilities back over to the banker, if they want to do so.

You've pushed the responsibility of getting an income on the new players instead of it being automatic like it used to be. The new estate system won't fix that issue as far as I can see though it might mitigate it..maybe.

I think it will definitely help. Getting an estate and an income is much, much simpler under the new system.

The push for duchies to be prominent seems to be pretty much a failure to me. They're too small units and just about anyone will choose their realm over the duchy because it is the realm that provides all the fun and atmosphere in 99% of the cases. Start pushing for the realm as a team again since that actually has a chance of working.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I've always been a supporter of realm-as-team. This concept is supported by several game mechanics, including diplomacy and the messaging system itself. Trying to force the game down tot he duchy-as-team level is fighting a losing fight. That doesn't mean that I don't like some of the newer duchy-centric features. However, trying to force the duchy to be the team just doesn't fit.

[vonGenf]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I've always been a supporter of realm-as-team. This concept is supported by several game mechanics, including diplomacy and the messaging system itself. Trying to force the game down tot he duchy-as-team level is fighting a losing fight. That doesn't mean that I don't like some of the newer duchy-centric features. However, trying to force the duchy to be the team just doesn't fit.

This is actually my favorite part of the new system. You want a realm-centric realm? Make your ruler the only Duke around. You want independent smaller teams? Name many Dukes. Your group wants to integrate another realm but keep some kind of autonomy? Have your leader named Duke and keep a separate structure.

[egamma]

You mean having regions generate resources, and the realms only being able to use those resources if they own the region? That would surely drive realms toward taking strategic regions due to the resources they provide.

I guess the question is how much would this add to the game in attracting/keeping players vs. how many players would we lose due to dropping trading? I have tried the trader game myself, and decided it really wasn't for me.

The trader game is only interesting when demand exceeds supply. If nobody needs to buy food, there's no point. My trader in D'Hara is VERY interesting to play, he's visited almost every single realm on Dwilight.

The concern, of course, is that if nobody else cares, then they could have resource shortages, especially for wood/metal.

[fodder]

well.. it depends, doesn't it. food can be done in a way that there's simply no such thing as starvation. ie.. the food you are trading are luxury items. just like the wood/rock/ore don't have to be needed at all. but having them speed things up or lower costs.

[Indirik]

The concern, of course, is that if nobody else cares, then they could have resource shortages, especially for wood/metal.

And will those shortages make the game more fun for the majority of players, or less fun? That's really the key to adding more resources, and the possibility of shortages. IMO if it doesn't pass the Fun Test, it's probably not worth adding.