What did we lose? What did we gain? 4th Inv aftermath

[songqu88@gmail.com]

You know, I get the feeling that the guys who played the daimons were laughing at you all through the Invasion. It's all past now though, so I'll drop the subject. You can go ahead and think whatever you'd like about being a mastermind manipulator, but the objective part is: you probably failed. The apparent answer by now should be clear that whatever it was you did was quite clearly on the wrong track, at least in terms of "complete" human victory. As it is now, we have a "victory" achieved solely by virtue of not being defeated, which is not much of a win at all.

Unfortunately due to the nature of the 4th Inv, and the interesting phenomenon whereby people think too hard about seemingly simple things and thus never get to the actual answer, we will probably never have a 100% good answer as to what happened. Oh well, I guess.

[Geronus]

Such alliances were necessary. If every realm had been defiant to the last and refused to make any alliances with the invaders, there wouldn't be any realms left. The invaders would have been forced to conquer every realm they encountered instead of what happened, which is that they destroyed some but allied with others and then fought each other to an extent, occasionally on behalf of their allies (or at least in ways that served to protect them).

In my opinion, the invaders were eminently capable of conquering the entire island. No human armies could have stood against them, even if every realm had willingly allied and devoted every effort to attacking the invaders. Does anyone seriously think that Mesh or Heen could have been saved? I seem to recall hearing about 100k CS concentrations of daimons at some points during the invasion. Their massive armies ensured fast takeovers, they had effectively limitless resources (from everything I was able to observe), and their units were nearly unbeatable. Sure, some monster and undead armies were defeated by humans alone at times, but the invaders never appeared to be scraping the bottom of the barrel recruitment-wise, and experience showed that even if you killed off the commanders, the GMs were allowed to create more characters. Each character was an army unto himself, capable of challenging all but the largest human forces. And they had quite a few characters.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I think we went about this all wrong. What are we doing still thinking the initial stages had some sort of military resistance possibility? Let's ditch that thought because it is very likely that was completely off-base.

I think that adventurers were very important in the initial stages, and the prophets that talked about throwing away one's honor weren't talking about allying with the invaders, but recognizing commoners. Debate as you will.

Furthermore, and here's the kicker: I recall Tom even mentioning once on the Dlist about how realms were wasting time initially allying with NPCs instead of doing something more important.

[Chenier]

You know, I get the feeling that the guys who played the daimons were laughing at you all through the Invasion. It's all past now though, so I'll drop the subject. You can go ahead and think whatever you'd like about being a mastermind manipulator, but the objective part is: you probably failed. The apparent answer by now should be clear that whatever it was you did was quite clearly on the wrong track, at least in terms of "complete" human victory. As it is now, we have a "victory" achieved solely by virtue of not being defeated, which is not much of a win at all.

Unfortunately due to the nature of the 4th Inv, and the interesting phenomenon whereby people think too hard about seemingly simple things and thus never get to the actual answer, we will probably never have a 100% good answer as to what happened. Oh well, I guess.

They can think themselves master manipulators themselves all they want, it is what you seem to think they were, and what Tom is suggesting they were. I'm not saying I tricked them against their best interests. These days, I am more one to go with the flow... I might try to divert a river here and there, but I'm not trying to build any dams anymore. And you seem to believe I wanted a complete human victory myself... you REALLY should stop assuming you know what I did, why, and how.

I might have done a few things slightly differently, but even in the light of all I know now, I mostly would have done exactly the same. Spreading the lies I was shared served my own best interests, after all. It's no coincidence I was so eager to share them in the first place. A ravaged Beluaterra is exactly what I sought all along. Not destroyed, but not standing tall either. A handful of broken realms is a good playground.

One doesn't need all the secrets to get things done. Those who know or think they know more than the others should be less haughty about it, as those who know less aren't clueless idiots as a result. Not even everyone wanted the humans to survive, and among those who did, many different levels of "survival" were desired. One simply can't be so arrogant as to claim to know another's motivations and ambitions without the latter explicitely confessing them.

And I must really insist on the fact that the servants of the light were douchebags. Regardless of what all the invaders said, which my characters didn't really buy though they promoted it all over, the servants' actions, choices, and attitude is what determined my characters' stance on them, along with most of his peers'.

[Tom]

They can think themselves master manipulators themselves all they want, it is what you seem to think they were, and what Tom is suggesting they were.

Not really. In fact, they were quite manipulative, including a successful infiltration (but not subversion, unfortunately) of the Blood Cult and a couple other religions, guilds and secret societies. We didn't just have the obvious GM characters, there were quite a few players with otherwise inconspicious families who had dedicated their Beluaterra character to an NPC role. But as they all were being played by essentially players, it would've been dumb to assume they were any better at that game.

They did have the advantage of inert cooperation (NPCs just don't suffer from infighting) and considerable resources. And I think they did quite well.

[Chenier]

Not really. In fact, they were quite manipulative, including a successful infiltration (but not subversion, unfortunately) of the Blood Cult and a couple other religions, guilds and secret societies. We didn't just have the obvious GM characters, there were quite a few players with otherwise inconspicious families who had dedicated their Beluaterra character to an NPC role. But as they all were being played by essentially players, it would've been dumb to assume they were any better at that game.

They did have the advantage of inert cooperation (NPCs just don't suffer from infighting) and considerable resources. And I think they did quite well.

Except that by the second half on the invasion, nobody other than myself really said anything in the Blood Cult, the notables mostly all being dead. It's hard to say the infiltrators managed to influence anyone when they didn't say a thing. And I did have a list in my mind of people who were obviously pro-daimon, they (or some of them) were rather easy to spot. Some characters and some families have overwhelming tendencies for such things, things I was not blind to.

I wasn't saying, nor will I say, that they were bad. I'm just not buying that they controlled the Blood Cult as some puppet as some statements suggest, as the leader of the said religion myself. By that time, the Cult's golden age was long gone anyways, its influence limited to a privileged channel of communication with the daimons in order to guide their action in return for various information or services, mostly to get them to sack all Daishi temples as payback for Daishi sacking many Blood Cult temples prior to the invasion, along with getting them to fight the monsters that plagued Enweil as often as possible.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I find it annoying that you are boasting about how much more manipulative and smarter the NPC's were than the players, when this is exactly what people aren't looking for in something that is to be played like a friendly board game.

Assuming that you and the NPC's tricked all of us, when some of us might have been trying to play our characters based on IC information instead, is rather haughty of you.

[Draco Tanos]

I find it annoying that you are boasting about how much more manipulative and smarter the NPC's were than the players, when this is exactly what people aren't looking for in something that is to be played like a friendly board game.

Assuming that you and the NPC's tricked all of us, when some of us might have been trying to play our characters based on IC information instead, is rather haughty of you.

You also have to take into account that Chénier fails the first rule of manipulation.  He believes his own propaganda. ;P

[Gustav Kuriga]

I was talking about Tom, but ok.

[^ban^]

I find it annoying that you are boasting about how much more manipulative and smarter the NPC's were than the players, when this is exactly what people aren't looking for in something that is to be played like a friendly board game.

Assuming that you and the NPC's tricked all of us, when some of us might have been trying to play our characters based on IC information instead, is rather haughty of you.

You have never played DnD, GURPS, Exalted, or any other pen-and-paper RPGs, have you?

[Nosferatus]

You have never played DnD, GURPS, Exalted, or any other pen-and-paper RPGs, have you?

I loved the way the daimons where played, thats how I play BM and thats how any rpg should be played.
But as like with dnd, alot of players who play it seem not to understand that.
The most fun situations came out of a party member betraying his very own party.

[Tom]

I find it annoying that you are boasting about how much more manipulative and smarter the NPC's were than the players, when this is exactly what people aren't looking for in something that is to be played like a friendly board game.

Assuming that you and the NPC's tricked all of us, when some of us might have been trying to play our characters based on IC information instead, is rather haughty of you.

I don't quite follow. Playing a game with friends doesn't mean I can't trick them. It's the spirit that counts. Tricking them so everyone can have a laugh about it when it comes out is a different thing. Tricking characters and not necesarily players is also important.

And I don't think I ever said smarter or more manipulative. Sorry if I sounded like that. I was trying to point out that the NPCs brought more to the game than just sheer numbers of military troops. And, as we've seen in this thread, both sides have tried to play the other, so I think it's all fair in the end. :-)

[Chenier]

I don't quite follow. Playing a game with friends doesn't mean I can't trick them. It's the spirit that counts. Tricking them so everyone can have a laugh about it when it comes out is a different thing. Tricking characters and not necesarily players is also important.

And I don't think I ever said smarter or more manipulative. Sorry if I sounded like that. I was trying to point out that the NPCs brought more to the game than just sheer numbers of military troops. And, as we've seen in this thread, both sides have tried to play the other, so I think it's all fair in the end. :-)

Tricking people is fine. Stating that you tricked people also is. While I realize that wasn't your intent, some of your previous statements, along with some of Artemesia's, were more along the lines of "some people [such as the Blood Cult] were total tools and we totally molded their minds to our will". Notably when you said that all of Mesh' accusations were true, when I, as the leader of the Blood Cult, would have put extreme relativity on a lot of the accusations. For example, they said they persecuted the Cult because it wanted to help the daimons. On the other hand, I'd say the Cult helped the daimons because Mesh and Hetland persecuted it and it wanted some payback. The actions were the same, but not the reasoning behind them, and the reasons influenced how the cooperation was done and were a big part of the debate.

As for Gustav's comment, it goes along these lines. OOC, I had serious doubts that the Light was there to save us, regardless of what the daimons said as I knew that if it was the case, the daimons and the others would lie about the Light in order to protect themselves. However, IC, they were total douchebags. I couldn't bring myself to act IC contrary to IC info and therefore on OOC motives only. But I dreaded myself every time I acted on that IC information, fearing I might lose my favorite continent because of it. So I kept playing with a very negative attitude towards the Light, more because of what they said themselves than what others said on them though, while OOC very well knowing that my character was likely not on the right path.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I don't quite follow. Playing a game with friends doesn't mean I can't trick them. It's the spirit that counts. Tricking them so everyone can have a laugh about it when it comes out is a different thing. Tricking characters and not necesarily players is also important.

And I don't think I ever said smarter or more manipulative. Sorry if I sounded like that. I was trying to point out that the NPCs brought more to the game than just sheer numbers of military troops. And, as we've seen in this thread, both sides have tried to play the other, so I think it's all fair in the end. :-)

I didn't say you couldn't trick people and laugh about it. It was just that you had what I read as an arrogant tone that implied we were dunces for falling for something obvious.

[^ban^]

It was just that you had what I read as an arrogant tone that implied we were dunces for falling for something obvious.

Then you read wrong. What he said was that the NPCs were played very, very well, even in spite of any mistakes. You don't call a player stupid for following a GM's plot hook, and that certainly is not what Tom said.