Noble clothing

[Alpha]

I sense you are being a bit sarcastic in this comment, but it leads to an interesting question. If your family is insanely wealthy, should that be reflected in your clothing?

Personally, whenever I make a claim about my characters appearance, I take four things into consideration: family wealth, personal status (knight, Lord, etc.), purpose of current journey, and realm culture. All of these should (I think) play some part in determining appearance . What do you guys think?

I think so. It's generally out of character to see a newly arrived knight from a relatively nonwealthy family dressed in solid gold plate mail. Not so much to see a Duke/King/Marquis, from a wealthy family, dressed in silks, and gold

[Vellos]

Markus - Caligus. Typically wears a white or red silk shirt and black breeches, black riding boots with a short dagger and medium length blade. dark cloak at night, white with red trim during the day. Only ornamentation is the silver rose pin used to clasp his cloak, always there on the field or no. On the field, he wears a breastplate, helm, and the same weapons, long campaigns he brings a small shield (think buckler).

Woelfen - Perdan. Wears a grey tunic with a blue tabard (order of the blue flame) over it, black breeches, heavily worked boots and a grey floppy hat with a white plume when in home lands, supple leather armour of grey and green when in the field. Stilleto dagger and a bow are his weapons.

Berwin - Arcaea. Wears an orange shirt with blue breeches, a white scarf, dark riding boots, and a heavily plumed tricorne hat. In the field, full plate mail that is decorated and showy along with a lance is the only way for him to fight. A small blade is attached to his saddle for when it is needed.

A reasonably plausible set out accoutrements, from a historical perspective... except the silk (unless Caligus, or an allied trading partner, has an RPed silk industry). A bit colorful, but not unbelievable. Plumes weren't really widely in still until later, but that's not a big deal. I'm unsure what you mean by "plate mail." The only plate mail I know of comes from the Middle East, and doesn't really mesh with the lance and tricorn. Unless you mean plate armor. In which case, that works... though, being a historical correctness nazi myself, it's a bit iffy to me, given that it isn't prominent until the 1300's or 1400's.

Personally, whenever I make a claim about my characters appearance, I take four things into consideration: family wealth, personal status (knight, Lord, etc.), purpose of current journey, and realm culture. All of these should (I think) play some part in determining appearance . What do you guys think?

Those seem like good guidelines. I would add a fifth and a sixth: "The Laws of Physics" and also "Historical Plausibility." You don't have mithril. You just don't. It violates both of those laws.

[WarMaid]

Anybody want to show me a picture of form-fitting medieval dresses?

Some tight(er) clothing does exist for women after around 1200; but, again, nobody goes to battle in that. You don't just go chill out in it.

One essential part of womens' formal wear that BM players rarely include: the hat! Giant hats were in for a long time. Especially pointy ones.

Tight clothing was really more for men than women.

The trouble with this sort of thinking is that what makes sense for women's fashion in /actual/ history doesn't make sense for Battlemaster.  In the real Middle Ages, women (barring a few extreme exceptions) didn't lead troops into battle, have true equality with men, or hold much power in their own right (with some notable exceptions).  That means that BM women will dress and act differently than real medieval women.

Silk is definitely possible, but expensive. It is true that rulers might demand it: but even high nobles like BM nobles should not be regularly running around in silk clothing. Silk is an emperor's formal wear (unless you have a special RP for your realm that establishes you as a silk-producing region).

Why on earth would this be true? BM is /not/ medieval Europe.  There are six different continents which have regular ship traffic between them.  You don't think that there is trade or that we, as the very highest of nobles would have the best that we can get our grabby hands on?  We are Queens and Dukes and Barons (and the family members of such) for the most part and even those "mere" knights are wealthier and more important than 99% of the other inhabitants of the realm (those NPC minor nobles and peasants).

Silk was expensive in the real middle ages, but not out of reach for the elite. * We are exactly the people who would be wearing those expensive fabrics.

Note that, in my mind, if a fashion only BEGINS to appear in 1300-1400, it isn't medieval. I would define medieval as widely popular by 1300-1400 at the LATEST. None of this 1492 or 1452 nonsense. BM is pre-gunpowder, so we should be thinking pre-Hundred-Years-War in terms of mood and dress. 800-1200 is the best bet for cultural models.

I think that there is little point in trying to history-Nazi around reasonable fashion choices.  For one thing, even people who are /trying/ to get the dress right mostly fail.  (I rarely see anyone wearing hose and codpieces, for example, or talk about hats...even the /men/ wore hats or hoods regularly.  If someone is making a genuine effort to describe reasonable fashion, then I'm not going to quibble that /properly/ they should be wearing a tunic and hose, and where, by the gods are their tabards and codpieces?)  For another, real world fashion was influenced by religion in a way that just doesn't exist in Battlemaster.  There is no central Catholic church to exercise political control over morals (including what would be appropriate dress).

There is no point in imposing real-world fashion into a light-fantasy world where it would just not make sense.
____

* There was a silk industry in Italy by the 13th century (before that, Western Europe got its silk from the Byzantine Empire or from trade with the East and was more expensive).  There were quite a number of references to silk and its uses in historical sources, but one that Matt found relates to the Sumptuary Laws (laws which restricted what level of finery and decoration people could wear).  A 14th century law restricted the wearing of silk to Esquires (and rich merchants) and those above them in the social hierarchy.  That there was even the possibility that someone below that level could wear silk suggests that it was not restricted to Emperors.   http://rosaliegilbert.com/sumptuarylaws.html

[Vellos]

The trouble with this sort of thinking is that what makes sense for women's fashion in /actual/ history doesn't make sense for Battlemaster.  In the real Middle Ages, women (barring a few extreme exceptions) didn't lead troops into battle, have true equality with men, or hold much power in their own right (with some notable exceptions).  That means that BM women will dress and act differently than real medieval women.

And the trouble with this sort of thinking is that it removes /all/ historical reference. BM women aren't like medieval women, granted. But then again, neither is BM war. Nor BM government. Nor BM religion or oaths. Why work for historical accuracy at all? BM isn't history, it's fantasy!

No. Historical accuracy is the measure because it is the only conceivably objective measure. Some systematic exceptions do exist (like sex equality); but that still doesn't explain (indeed, it goes the opposite) why BM women seem to be all dressed in 16th century formal attire. A woman in tunic and hose? Fine, makes sense given our setting. But anachronism doesn't.

Why on earth would this be true? BM is /not/ medieval Europe.  There are six different continents which have regular ship traffic between them.  You don't think that there is trade or that we, as the very highest of nobles would have the best that we can get our grabby hands on?  We are Queens and Dukes and Barons (and the family members of such) for the most part and even those "mere" knights are wealthier and more important than 99% of the other inhabitants of the realm (those NPC minor nobles and peasants).

False. There is not regular ship traffic between the six continents. I believe Tom has said that they are to be treated as more like independent game worlds than as physical continents, or something to that effect.

However, you do make a good point: it is plausible silk could be plentiful IN SOME PLACES. Though plentiful is, of course, relative. Plentiful for medievals still does not equal plentiful for moderns.

The issue is that BM characters seem to have NO scarcity. Okay, so you come from a silk-producing area: so where are you getting your wool? Your leather? Your iron? Your silver? Your gold? BM characters appear to have access to infinite resources without any reference to practical necessity, geographic location, plausible culture, or historical accuracy. They are dressed like moderns in that their dress seems more chosen from a world market than determined by a regional one.

Regarding class, yes, we would have some silk (or other expensive accoutrements). I have no issue with that, just as I have no issue with the occasional prestigious, wealthy hero being covered in glistening steel plate armor (despite that being a 15th century style). My issue is when EVERY noble is ALWAYS dressed like that, when every outfit is a costume and every costume is systematically anachronistic and globalized.

I think that there is little point in trying to history-Nazi around reasonable fashion choices.

I define reasonable fashion choice as "historically plausible fashion choice."

For one thing, even people who are /trying/ to get the dress right mostly fail.  (I rarely see anyone wearing hose and codpieces, for example, or talk about hats...even the /men/ wore hats or hoods regularly.  If someone is making a genuine effort to describe reasonable fashion, then I'm not going to quibble that /properly/ they should be wearing a tunic and hose, and where, by the gods are their tabards and codpieces?)  For another, real world fashion was influenced by religion in a way that just doesn't exist in Battlemaster.  There is no central Catholic church to exercise political control over morals (including what would be appropriate dress).

Codpieces aren't widely popular among nobility until later in the 13th century;I generally restrict my characters to 900-1100. That said, my characters generally do wear tunic, hose, tabards, cloaks, and hoods. Though I usually don't overly concern myself with describing my characters' clothing.

Finally, you are correct in noting we have no central Catholic church. But we also have no other RP culture. BM's world is a cultural vacuum, by and large, with just a few exceptions. As such, if a place has a clear culture (I think of Irombrozia for this), sure, dress for the culture (we had a sort of "tropical religious fanatics" type thing going on). But most BM realms don't have a culture able to supply that kind of depth. So medieval history should be the default, not recklessly anachronistic fantasy novels.

There is no point in imposing real-world fashion into a light-fantasy world where it would just not make sense.

BM doesn't make sense /without/ real-world impositions.

[egamma]

False. There is not regular ship traffic between the six continents. I believe Tom has said that they are to be treated as more like independent game worlds than as physical continents, or something to that effect.

Then how do nobles emigrate? Surely we aren't using star trek teleporters?

There is some ship traffic between the continents. The continents are far enough apart that it's not feasible for an attack force from one continent to invade another--food supplies for a sufficient number of soldiers can't be carried along, so we know it's a very long distance. But the same ship that might carry a noble to a new life, can also carry nonperishables like silk. After all, you don't have to feed silk.

[Vellos]

There is no indication of intercontinental trade on any economically meaningful scale. It's true, we don't know that there ISN'T such trade, but there is no reason to believe there IS such trade, and Tom has historically discouraged thinking of the islands as components to one coherent, united "world." Or, at least, that is my understanding of it, though I could be wrong.

[Bedwyr]

If you think those ships are traveling across oceans to other continents without taking trade goods, then you're dreaming.  And if they can travel enough to take nobles, then they can certainly have trade routes.

However, I think a lot of this is besides the point.  Technology levels and physical realities are the only real limitations, as the Battlemaster world is so clearly different from ours that further parallels are sketchy at best.

We leave in a world that is constantly under threat from monsters and undead, and is now being invaded by Daimons straight out of Hell itself on a semi-regular basis.  The implications of true sex equality would have an even more astounding impact, as does the fact that time doesn't function in the same way.

This is not a medieval simulator game.  This is a light fantasy game.  Telling people off for wearing plate mail even in their sleep, sure.  Telling people off for wearing plate mail because it's not within whatever boundaries you've set for the game is just plain silly, and discouraging people who are making an effort to make their characters more real than just bits on a computer screen is not in the best interests of the game.

[Vellos]

Telling people off for it in game, yes.

But did you read the name of this forum? Background. Not role-playing. Background.

"Discussions about history, medieval weapons and society and other background or philosophical talk"

Not about light fantasy here. About the history side of it. I would never get on a person IG for silk lining, gold fringing, or plate armor in game, nor really generally on this forum or the wiki. Unless the discussion is specifically about history. That's what this part of the forum is about; so people can have a background resource to refer to.

Notably, BM is described as "a team-oriented browsergame merging strategy and roleplaying. It is set in a low-fantasy middle-ages world and players take the role of nobles and lords."

Low fantasy, yes. But not only low fantasy. Also middle-ages.

So you're right. Telling people off for wearing plate armor (plate mail is whole different animal) would be rude and hardly conducive to the game. But in a forum entirely concerned with the historical background then surely it isn't out of place to point out that error, along with myriad others?

[Woelfen]

My mistake Vellos, it should have been read as "full plate and mail"

Imagine bracers, greaves, breastplate, gorget, helm, gauntlets, and ring or chain mail underneath. Not the overlapping plate mail of the Middle East. I'd been drinking last night, so my syntax was probably a bit further off than I wanted.

Again, my mistake and apologies for any inconvience.

[Vellos]

No problem.

I know people often mean plate armor when they say plate mail. I'm just a cranky nerd.

[Haerthorne]

In terms of medieval armour I like to use just basic chain armour or leather for soldiers (depending on how well armed they are) and up it to the kinds of armour used in medieval poems of the 1200's and earlier like Raoul de Cambrai and Song of Roland. Things like double/triple coats of chain. This in itself was often more than enough to protect against most medieval weapons along with your shield and helmet (never forget to wear a helmet people!).

One of the most realistic descriptions of a battle I've read in fantasy was from the Deverry series, based on the british isles. The nobles typically lived in small forts called "duns" and the lesser nobles might only have around 6 men in their personal guards, so that a single mercenary could tip the balance in a particularly long feud. During on of the larger battles they were practically using their swords with the effectiveness of clubs against the mailed parts of the body. Rivetted mail could better protect against thrusts and for the most part you were bruising the person inside his armour rather than hacking bits of him off, unless you went for the legs.

[De-Legro]

I do not regard a historical error of 300 years as in the spirit of things.

My view is simple. Battlemaster borrows aspects of a certain historical age, it is not a historical simulation. While I understand that for some the "fun" is ruined by historical inaccuracies, I think we need to deduce that for the majority of players history is a supporting act in the game, and not the focus.

[Vellos]

In terms of medieval armour I like to use just basic chain armour or leather for soldiers (depending on how well armed they are) and up it to the kinds of armour used in medieval poems of the 1200's and earlier like Raoul de Cambrai and Song of Roland. Things like double/triple coats of chain. This in itself was often more than enough to protect against most medieval weapons along with your shield and helmet (never forget to wear a helmet people!).

One of the most realistic descriptions of a battle I've read in fantasy was from the Deverry series, based on the british isles. The nobles typically lived in small forts called "duns" and the lesser nobles might only have around 6 men in their personal guards, so that a single mercenary could tip the balance in a particularly long feud. During on of the larger battles they were practically using their swords with the effectiveness of clubs against the mailed parts of the body. Rivetted mail could better protect against thrusts and for the most part you were bruising the person inside his armour rather than hacking bits of him off, unless you went for the legs.

A man after my own heart!