Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1042533 times)

JeVondair

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2610: April 18, 2013, 08:23:50 PM »
This is all Chernier's fault.  :P
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2611: April 18, 2013, 10:54:25 PM »
the·oc·ra·cy 
/THēˈäkrəsē/
Noun
A system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.


Theocracies don't exist in BM

However, these do, at least since "Theocracy" leaders have been added to the Elder's council:
An ecclesiocracy is a situation where the religious leaders assume a leading role in the state, but do not claim that they are instruments of divine revelation.

Penchant

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2612: April 18, 2013, 10:56:43 PM »
However, these do, at least since "Theocracy" leaders have been added to the Elder's council:
An ecclesiocracy is a situation where the religious leaders assume a leading role in the state, but do not claim that they are instruments of divine revelation.
Exactly, we have SA ecclesiocracies not theocracies. It was what I was trying to get across earlier, btw go wikipedia since we both went there!
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cenrae

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2613: April 19, 2013, 12:21:35 AM »
I Think its integrating that way back when I first joined SA I had no desire to be caught up in the politics of the religion. Yet now as Khari is developed more I find that occupies most of my thoughts when I think of this game.
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Meneldur

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2614: April 19, 2013, 12:27:50 AM »
Not so. All our laws came of FRs free will when requested by Vellos. The kicking and screaming came from the church when we passed the open preaching law which we then revoked by a new vote.

So it's entirely a coincidence that the new vote in which the Farronite Lords changed their minds came after the church berated and condemned them for passing it? Perhaps I'm mistaken because I'm not in FR but it certainly seems to me that were it not for the church's nagging, Farronite law would have remained quite un-theocratic in this area. And quite frankly I think most of the Elders do not see much appeal in having to nag one of their "theocracies" to death every time a new crisis crops up requiring a new law or other service from them.

Furthermore I was also specifically thinking about the situation with Allison- while that is not mentioned in the Charter, harboring Allison was a very un-theocratic action and Khari made a point of emphasizing that she did not care whatsoever what the church thought on the matter and that the execution was done entirely for personal reasons. A "theocracy" whose ruler makes a point of deliberately ignoring the Elders Council on important issues is again not something I think most Elders want to deal with.

Wait, the Charter provides NO GUIDANCE WHATSOEVER ABOUT HOW TO DEFINE THEOCRACY?

Oh my goodness! What an ACCIDENTAL OVERSIGHT!

Wait a second... Astrum and Morek and Corsanctum don't abide by all the responsibilities listed?

ZOMG! How could the person writing the Charter have been so careless!

I don't know what to say, guys, this is all just one big terrible mixup that the Farronite Republic might be more eligible for theocratic status than Morek! I swear I didn't mean it!

The ambiguity cuts both ways however. As Constantine pointed out when the new Charter was being voted for, there are no details whatsoever as to how or if a realm could become a theocracy. All that is listed are the requirements for already existing and future theocracies. So while the ambiguity does mean that an Elders Council favorable to FR could admit them on the grounds they meet the requirements, there is absolutely nothing in the Charter that requires an Elders Council less friendly to FR to do so. And I would argue that the majority of the current Elders Council seems certainly quite against the notion of giving FR theocracy status.

As I said Constantine has noted this ambiguity, and is quite happy with it- he is not against FR becoming a theocracy on principle, and if circumstances were different may have in fact been favorable to their entry (though perhaps as a "faithful realm" rather than using the word theocracy). However he feels that with the current leadership of FR being as it is, making them a theocracy will merely give Khari more excuses to ignore the Elders when it suits her and thereby actually harm the church rather than benefit it.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 12:29:44 AM by Meneldur »

Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2615: April 19, 2013, 01:38:29 AM »
Quote
A "theocracy" whose ruler makes a point of deliberately ignoring the Elders Council on important issues is again not something I think most Elders want to deal with.
It's not just the Elders, they have snubbed the Prophet. When the Prophet declared that Allison couldn't come back to the theocracies, FR said that didn't apply to them because they weren't a theocracy, and allowed her in. They actually decided to /vote/ on whether or not to comply with the Prophet's decree for the theocracies.
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Solari

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2616: April 19, 2013, 01:43:50 AM »
It's not just the Elders, they have snubbed the Prophet. When the Prophet declared that Allison couldn't come back to the theocracies, FR said that didn't apply to them because they weren't a theocracy, and allowed her in. They actually decided to /vote/ on whether or not to comply with the Prophet's decree for the theocracies.

I don't think he even limited it to Astrocracies. He said any realm friendly to Sanguis Astroism.

Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2617: April 19, 2013, 02:19:51 AM »
I forget the exact wording at the moment. He made different requirements for theocracies and for realms following the Stars, or something. In any case, all the theocracies immediately indicated they would do it, and FR said something like "no thanks, we need the nobles, we are going to keep her". Only later did they vote to ban her.
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Solari

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2618: April 19, 2013, 02:35:51 AM »
Quote
Orders from Mathurin Hossenfeffer   (21 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to all elder members of "Sanguis Astroism" (14 recipients)

Elders,

The problem with Allison Kabsinski is that she will say whatever she thinks the listener wishes to hear in order to get her way.  She was cast from the Faith once before, and swore penitence to be readmitted.  She was shown the Open Hand but once granted membership again, her penitence faded entirely and she reshaped the entire event as the fault of others, or as part of a ruse (the convoluted 'benefit' of which I have long since forgotten).

I have no doubt she misses the validity that membership of the true Church of Sanguis Astroism gave her.  I have no doubt that she would swear to abide by any penance or punishment we proposed to regain entry to the Faith.  And I have no doubt that once readmitted she would immediately begin trying to rebuild her base of influence within the Church with a view to challenging for leadership as she has done before.

I commend those of you who have maintained friendships with Allison and I have no disagreement with you remaining on cordial terms with her.  However, given her apparent desire to return to us, I think perhaps it would be best to make my position clear.

I oppose the return of Allison Kabrinski to the Faith.
I oppose the admission of Allison Kabrinski to any Theocracy of the Faith.
I counsel against the admission of Allison Kabrinski to any realm which professes to be friendly to the Faith.

Dishman

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2619: April 19, 2013, 02:46:04 AM »
True, but you can't really knock them for letting her in when they killed her.
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Solari

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2620: April 19, 2013, 02:49:25 AM »
True, but you can't really knock them for letting her in when they killed her.

Malus tried to get Luria to do that intentionally. Buncha sissies.  :'(

OFaolain

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2621: April 19, 2013, 02:49:55 AM »
Hey, one of you high-falootin' elder types has got to be near a temple.  Does SA not auto-promote neophytes anymore?  Or did my request get lost in the six-billion messages a day you have to sift through?
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Chenier

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2622: April 19, 2013, 02:51:19 AM »
Hey, one of you high-falootin' elder types has got to be near a temple.  Does SA not auto-promote neophytes anymore?  Or did my request get lost in the six-billion messages a day you have to sift through?

Diffusion of responsibilities can be a bitch. It must be really easy for such a large group of people to fail to promote newcommers if none of them are in a region with a temple whenever the request is made.
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Solari

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2623: April 19, 2013, 02:53:20 AM »
Diffusion of responsibilities can be a bitch. It must be really easy for such a large group of people to fail to promote newcommers if none of them are in a region with a temple whenever the request is made.

*grumble*

The Austere and the Auspicious share some of the same responsibilities, but not exactly the same. I made it a point to bitch about this during the most recent revision of the Charter and it got nowhere. I wonder why, Vellos? ;-P

OFaolain

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2624: April 19, 2013, 02:53:52 AM »
none of them are in a region with a temple whenever the request is made.

There are regions without SA temples?  :o
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