Sanguis Astroism

[Chenier]

Because it's reforming to a theocracy and the charter obligates the church to defend theocracies. These kind of obligations were a big part of medieval society and they frequently came into conflict. That's what a lot of Arthurian stories are all about, the clash between different Chivalric values and oaths.

Have you tried getting Asylon and Aurvandil involved?

Except that Terran was not yet a theocracy. And as far as I know, it still isn't. The church had no obligations to it. If FR is rebuked because the game states it isn't a theocracy, than so should have Terran.

[dustole]

You all miss the main point. Vellos had to convince only one person to call a crusade.  After that momentum kicks in. I am glad though, we haven't had many crusades. This will test the loyalty to the church for a few nobles. I hope we see some push back over the declaration.

[Chenier]

You all miss the main point. Vellos had to convince only one person to call a crusade.  After that momentum kicks in. I am glad though, we haven't had many crusades. This will test the loyalty to the church for a few nobles. I hope we see some push back over the declaration.

That he only had to convince one person doesn't change how ridiculous it was to declare a crusade over this.

[Perth]

You all miss the main point. Vellos had to convince only one person to call a crusade.  After that momentum kicks in. I am glad though, we haven't had many crusades. This will test the loyalty to the church for a few nobles. I hope we see some push back over the declaration.

It's not going to test anything. It's going to be over before it even begins.

[pcw27]

Except that Terran was not yet a theocracy. And as far as I know, it still isn't. The church had no obligations to it. If FR is rebuked because the game states it isn't a theocracy, than so should have Terran.

The game alone doesn't state that Farronite is a theocracy, they are dedicated to remaining a republic with astroist principles. I actually argued that we should not go with the games definition of a theocracy for the charter. The game says a theocracy needs a ruler elected once, a judge appointed once and a banker and general elected at regular intervals. In debates they ended up saying this is necessary for an Astroist theocracy because people considered it more stable then a republican system or any other government system for that matter.

I'm working to amend the charter to say that there are also "theocratic realms" which are entitled to the same mutual defense.

It's not going to test anything. It's going to be over before it even begins.

With that attitude it is.

You might feel differently if you were tuned in to the SA channel. It's creating a lot of division in the church. I've got my fingers crossed for a schism.

[Chenier]

You might feel differently if you were tuned in to the SA channel. It's creating a lot of division in the church. I've got my fingers crossed for a schism.

I wouldn't count on it.

[Anaris]

The game says a theocracy needs a ruler elected once, a judge appointed once and a banker and general elected at regular intervals.

This is simply, demonstrably, and completely untrue.

[Chenier]

This is simply, demonstrably, and completely untrue.

Speaking of which: I asked the church what the hell *was* a theocracy, anyways? No answer. Gotta come to the conclusion that the game's sticker on the realm page decides who is a theocracy and who is, if there's no other standards...

[Perth]

With that attitude it is.

You might feel differently if you were tuned in to the SA channel. It's creating a lot of division in the church. I've got my fingers crossed for a schism.

I have plenty of contacts within the Church, both low and high in ranking. As if it hasn't been stated already, there are Astroists in Kale's military council--his Marshals--who receive all the letters to the full membership of SA.

It has nothing to do with my attitude, it's just how the game works. A Crusade was called to defend Terran, and it's going to work because it isn't a hard task to achieve. That's just the bottom line. Kale's 5,000 CS just cannot prevail against the forces of Astrum and Morek and Corsanctum and Terran. And no, Asylon and Aurvandil won't be able to change that (even if they were dumb enough to go along with that).

[Anaris]

Speaking of which: I asked the church what the hell *was* a theocracy, anyways? No answer. Gotta come to the conclusion that the game's sticker on the realm page decides who is a theocracy and who is, if there's no other standards...

If you're looking for a definition of "Theocracy," then I would say that's exactly correct.

If you want to be able to talk about something else specific to the SA charter (or other SA bylaws), I strongly suggest creating a distinct term, along the lines of "Theocratic Astroist State".

[pcw27]

This is simply, demonstrably, and completely untrue.

That's what the wiki reads.

[Anaris]

That's what the wiki reads.

As has been pretty plainly the case for years now, no government system is tied to a particular set of voting arrangements.

The Wiki is woefully out of date on a number of issues. This is just one more of them.

[pcw27]

I have plenty of contacts within the Church, both low and high in ranking. As if it hasn't been stated already, there are Astroists in Kale's military council--his Marshals--who receive all the letters to the full membership of SA.

It has nothing to do with my attitude, it's just how the game works. A Crusade was called to defend Terran, and it's going to work because it isn't a hard task to achieve. That's just the bottom line. Kale's 5,000 CS just cannot prevail against the forces of Astrum and Morek and Corsanctum and Terran. And no, Asylon and Aurvandil won't be able to change that (even if they were dumb enough to go along with that).

I'm pretty sure some of them will be severely limited by the distance.

Why would it be stupid for Aurvandil to get involved? They'd be stopping the one chance the church has of getting within reach of them.

Also lets keep in mind that just because you can't destroy Terran right now doesn't mean you can't stay at war with them. The crusade is in defense of Terran, not for the destruction of Phantaria. You can continue to have hostile relations. In theory you can have border disputes and pillage them from time to time. The church almost let it slide when you were going to destroy them, they probably wont care if you just harass them.

That's actually a situation I think is all too rare in Dwilight realms building up a long term hostility without actually trying to destroy each other (which is how it usually went in medieval times). That's how you make sure there's wars and conflicts to enjoy.

I have plenty of contacts within the Church, both low and high in ranking. As if it hasn't been stated already, there are Astroists in Kale's military council--his Marshals--who receive all the letters to the full membership of SA.

Did they tell you about the letter Kas is accused of sending?

[Gustav Kuriga]

pcw27, I honestly don't see how you can argue that this makes sense OOC. I can understand the IC reasons, there's plenty of them. But OOC, it's pretty clear that this is not really a crusade but actually just something declared so that the Church has something to do. I mean if there was no crusade declared against Aurvandil, which housed a direct competitor to Sanguis Astroism, then why should one be declared for Terran, which wasn't even a Theocracy at the time it was called. It still isn't, in fact. And as we all know, GAME MECHANICS TRUMP RP.

[Vellos]

Except that Terran was not yet a theocracy. And as far as I know, it still isn't. The church had no obligations to it. If FR is rebuked because the game states it isn't a theocracy, than so should have Terran.

The elders are divided on the matter.

IMHO, if FR had wanted to be recognized as a theocracy, a majority of elders probably would have allowed it to fly, provided they were willing to actually call themselves a theocracy, etc, etc.

But let's be clear: the Farronite Republic has never requested that they be recognized as a theocracy, or stated that they desire to become one. That is a VERY important point. The Farronite Republic requested an ARCHONSHIP, which is emphatically NOT the same as being recognized as a theocracy. They asked for the benefit without any of the cost.

Some elders are sticklers for the game title. But I think a majority probably aren't. They're only forcing it on Hireshmont because of the political situation regarding Terran and concerns about his personal, political ambitions: same reason the elders are forcing Hireshmont to step away from secular power in Terran on a pretty fixed timeframe.

The peculiar demands of game-mechanic government change are not an immutable rule of Sanguis Astroism's charter. According to the charter, theocracies are merely what the elders vote them to be, as they are not otherwise defined. FR has made no attempt to convince any elders they should be recognized as a theocracy: they've tried to convince the elders they should receive an Archonship, which is totally different.

Terran, however, as NOT requested an Archonship, but HAS lobbied to be recognized as a theocracy. And, surprise, we're pretty darn well recognized as a theocracy, except by some bitter loudmouths with previous histories with Hireshmont.