Sanguis Astroism

[Dishman]

Secrecy is what is killing most realms or the game really. To keep people interested you have to share most of what is going on, you don't have to copy all letters but you certainly can involve people a lot more then just say "do this, do that" and that's it.

I'm not sure about the other Elders, but I find myself neck-deep in messages. Between the making of the sausage in the Elder Council, interesting priest chatter, and my own personal correspondence; I really don't give the full member discussion the attention it deserves. I like to think I answer all the private questions that come to me, at least.

Yet there are a fair number of Elder positions. If people are unhappy with how the sausage is made and want to get their hands dirty, Consul elections and maybe even special representative spots are a good foot in the door.

[Stabbity]

90%? Really? Want to write up a list of those PRO-Niselur and those Anti-Niselur? 'cause I can't see it being 90%. After all, Consuls are elected, and not a single consul (or elder) voted against the Holy Inquisition.

As for "why would I care about the opinions of the people not voting for me in an election", well, that's pretty obvious. Because they didn't put you in power, and you don't need them to get in power again. Constantly courting those who are against you is a great way of alienating those who are actually for you.

SA isn't eager to kick people out. The war has been going on for a LONG time. The Church had declared a crusade against it LONG ago. Yet it let everyone be. It just now came to a breaking point where the elders had to act in order to respect the Charter and protect the foundations of the Church. Alaster, by the way, isn't an elder.

"Oh no, I'm trying to build my power by attacking someone, and they decided not to let themselves be bullied! How dare they distract me!"

It amazes me how anyone in Niselur can seriously claim that the Church is, in any way, the instigator. Literally everything that could have been done to piss off the Church was done.

Says you. A large part of the faith is made up of nobles that don't even want to hear any discussion and are intentionally holding aspirant ranks. A lot of realms are decaying, and a lot of them aren't secretive, while a lot of those who are are losing just as many people that are "in the know" than those who aren't. The elders don't refuse to talk to the full members, it's the full members that rarely say anything worth replying to. And there has been a LOT of public talk over the months that preceded this decision. It really doesn't come out of the blue.

Except that you weren't present for the long build up to Niselur's breaking from the Church. You're not qualified to speak on it. Nieslur has not done everything it can to piss off the church. The fact that no temples have been razed is proof of that (there might have been a couple rogue incidents of this happening I'm sure, it happened infrequently even before the current conflicts). If Niselur really wanted to antagonize the Church, it could. It is after all, winning the war.

However, the Elders antagonized the rest of the Church for quite some time prior to the current conflict, which is what lead to the break. Declaring crusade to defend the joke that was Theocratic Terran was really, really unpopular, especially outside of the theocracies and their sycophants. Its what lead to Leopold breaking from the church. I was apart of that, and encouraged him along the way, because frankly, it was very convenient for us in Luria Nova planning to wage war on D'hara at the time. Jonsu had private sermons with a large number of nobles throughout the church in influential secular positions, and it helped to line things up to meet her goals perfectly. Theocratic power eroded, Morek unable to come to D'hara's aid.

However, you were not present for a vast majority of the protests leading up to the Crusade of Follies, and probably what was a key moment for the break was when Mordaunt up and decided to take offensive action against Phantaria (a realm with a sizeable Astroist population) despite the fact that the scope of the crusade was only ever meant to be defensive. Mordaunt being a noble of Iashular/Niselur at time really brought things to a boil. Leopold had instructed his nobles to not partake, and wanted nothing to do with crusading against fellow astroists. The church then proceeded to undermine him, and really he was left with two options: play along with the Church where he was outnumbered in support in the Elders, who supported very hokey politics (I mean suddenly declaring your realm a theocracy to save your ass from a war sets a terrible precedent, now anytime someone loses a war against a non-theocratic party all they have to do is declare themselves a theocracy), or stand up for his own rights within his realm. We all know the story from there.

[Chenier]

Sacking temples wouldn't have been a move to antagonize the Church, it would have been a move to mobilize the Church. If I was leading Niselur, and I wanted to destroy the Chuch, I wouldn't have sacked the temples either. It'd be a stupid thing to do.

Yes, the Terran fiasco had grave consequences. It was a bad move, and I never even suggested otherwise. Even I was opposed to it, but that didn't make me go attack Astrum. The elders' mistakes may have made cracks, but nothing forced Niselur to reform itself into a monarchy and to go ally up with Asylon and sack Astrum. And seriously, you want me to believe that Leopold was against attacking fellow astroists? Why the heck is that exactly what he did, then? He took his actions because that's what he wanted to do, not because he was forced to do it. He wanted to shake things up and make things more fun for the nobles of his realm, and the most geopolitically sound manoeuvre was attacking Astrum, which it had less affinities to and possibilities to expand into, and get in league with realms that were more to his liking, like Asylon, FR, and Phantaria. It suited his ambitions. He's not a victim.

[Chenier]

I might also add that I am not new to the Church, and that my involvement in Church affairs predates my joining it. You may have been too busy calling Machiavel a "political convert" while you were undermining church politics to Luria's benefits by your own sayings, that doesn't mean I'm clueless as to how events evolved into what they are now. Don't confuse how many times you repeat your proganda with how many people actually believe it. Machiavel has always petitioned in favor of a strong yet open Church, unlike those who made it a point to slander him, who have only ever petitioned for a weak powerless church at the mercy of secular powers.

[Stabbity]

If you would recall, Leopold attempted to make peace with the theocracies after withdrawing from the federation. He did not want war, he wanted independence. The Church said no, and voted to excommunicate him and declared war. It wasn't like Leopold was like "Sup guys, we're not apart of you anymore, by the way our troops are looting you and we're besties with Asylon now."

What Niselur did was the only logical course of action left to them if they wanted to retain independence in governance from the Church. Chew on that before you go stuffing your fingers in your ears and chanting "lalalalalaalala the church can do no wrong"

[Chenier]

If you would recall, Leopold attempted to make peace with the theocracies after withdrawing from the federation. He did not want war, he wanted independence. The Church said no, and voted to excommunicate him and declared war. It wasn't like Leopold was like "Sup guys, we're not apart of you anymore, by the way our troops are looting you and we're besties with Asylon now."

What Niselur did was the only logical course of action left to them if they wanted to retain independence in governance from the Church. Chew on that before you go stuffing your fingers in your ears and chanting "lalalalalaalala the church can do no wrong"

He could have negotiated the withdrawal, but instead decided a unilateral move and then only pretended to want discussion. By which time, it was already clear to everone, IC and OOC, what his goals and aspirations were. He had been OOC recruiting for a while. He WANTED conflict, and thus made sure he got it.

[Stabbity]

He could have negotiated the withdrawal, but instead decided a unilateral move and then only pretended to want discussion. By which time, it was already clear to everone, IC and OOC, what his goals and aspirations were. He had been OOC recruiting for a while. He WANTED conflict, and thus made sure he got it.

Then we shall have to agree to disagree. The war could have been avoided. The Elders just weren't having it, and now this is the end result. I'm amused that the Church thinks its in position to make ultimatums.

[Chenier]

Then we shall have to agree to disagree. The war could have been avoided. The Elders just weren't having it, and now this is the end result. I'm amused that the Church thinks its in position to make ultimatums.

Why, because your friend D'Este plans on abusing game mechanics by switching to priest class before he can get expelled and then using priest actions to lower following? Even you had the decency to leave on your own instead of going down that path.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I think this goes here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wntX-a3jSY

[Stabbity]

Why, because your friend D'Este plans on abusing game mechanics by switching to priest class before he can get expelled and then using priest actions to lower following? Even you had the decency to leave on your own instead of going down that path.

Cry some more. It wouldn't be the first time someone in the world used position within an organization to undermine it. That, and I was not talking about that anyway. D'este the wicked priest aside, the Church is not in a position to make ultimatums. I really find their demands amusing.

[D`Este]

Why, because your friend D'Este plans on abusing game mechanics by switching to priest class before he can get expelled and then using priest actions to lower following? Even you had the decency to leave on your own instead of going down that path.

Well, actually, no, not for those reasons. But not going to argue with you here, because you won't believe me as I have a different opinion then you.

[Daycryn]

I'm not sure about the other Elders, but I find myself neck-deep in messages. Between the making of the sausage in the Elder Council, interesting priest chatter, and my own personal correspondence; I really don't give the full member discussion the attention it deserves. I like to think I answer all the private questions that come to me, at least.

Yet there are a fair number of Elder positions. If people are unhappy with how the sausage is made and want to get their hands dirty, Consul elections and maybe even special representative spots are a good foot in the door.

The... sausage?

[Stabbity]

The... sausage?

Does this mean its appropriate to refer to the elders of SA as "the Sausage Festival"?

[Vellos]

Well, actually, no, not for those reasons. But not going to argue with you here, because you won't believe me as I have a different opinion then you.

Psh. Sure.

[vonGenf]

The... sausage?

In case you're unaware, this refers to a famous quote often misattributed to Bismarck:

"Laws, like sausages, cease to inspire respect in proportion as we know how they are made."