Sanguis Astroism

[Anaris]

In light of the recent controversial in-character actions, I'd like to remind everyone in the strongest possible terms to be civil on this thread, and not to bring in-character disputes to the forum. Violation of either of these principles will be moderated with extreme prejudice.

[Zakilevo]

I think like many things, SA has served its purpose. It has been quite stagnant for awhile and it didn't find any way of solving it.

[Feylonis]

On the contrary, SA has been very exciting lately. It's also good, in a sense, that things happen in SA. Religion has a very great potential in the game, and SA experiences might be able to help the dev team improve the system.

[OFaolain]

Well, that was cute.

[Dishman]

I'd like to first say that I hope noone ragequits. I'll be forthcoming with any pertinent information if anyone wants to create a magistrate case, but it was a judgement call and I saw the game mechanics and RP for the character and made that call. I want no OOC hard feelings and accept any judgement rendered.

If it is any consolation, Enoch has plotted against most of Dwilight since arriving. I've played this character as a weasily smart-ass since the beginning. He and Bowie talked of different ways to undermine SA quite often. I tried to make sure that he put on a good face, but there were tell-tale signs that he was dicking you over.

I also want to point out that I spoke with Stabbity and asked him not to simply destroy the religion. I asked that he kept it 'a viable entity'. It will certainly see people leave, but there have always been people who stayed with their church even when it reformed itself.

I had it suggested to me to declare myself second prophet. I'm sure we would have seen something like this eventually if Regency elections ran for a while. It simply didn't feel right for the character, in this situation.

I was going to continue RP announcements with explanations, but I demoted myself too low and was kicked.

[Stabbity]

I'd like to first say that I hope noone ragequits. I'll be forthcoming with any pertinent information if anyone wants to create a magistrate case, but it was a judgement call and I saw the game mechanics and RP for the character and made that call. I want no OOC hard feelings and accept any judgement rendered.

If it is any consolation, Enoch has plotted against most of Dwilight since arriving. I've played this character as a weasily smart-ass since the beginning. He and Bowie talked of different ways to undermine SA quite often. I tried to make sure that he put on a good face, but there were tell-tale signs that he was dicking you over.

I also want to point out that I spoke with Stabbity and asked him not to simply destroy the religion. I asked that he kept it 'a viable entity'. It will certainly see people leave, but there have always been people who stayed with their church even when it reformed itself.

I had it suggested to me to declare myself second prophet. I'm sure we would have seen something like this eventually if Regency elections ran for a while. It simply didn't feel right for the character, in this situation.

I was going to continue RP announcements with explanations, but I demoted myself too low and was kicked.

Yes, this has been planned for a bit, and I do intend on keeping the Church viable. I really do hope no one rage quits over some IC intrigue, and it saddens me to see Vellos pausing. As someone pointed out in an OOC message, yes this did occur on Superbowl Sunday. It was not planned, there was no "no one can stop us if we do it on Superbowl Sunday". It is the result of a culmination of IC events, and resolved naturally, and so happened to fall on today.

I am interested to see where this goes, and see if it breathes new life into Sanguis Astroism. I believe the organization has enough inertia to survive this turbulence, and come out better, in whatever form it so happens to do so, for it.

[Dishman]

I hadn't actually planned for it to be today, but Jonsu joined the church and I already had everything written up for the event. I had hoped to get a bit farther away from potential infiltrators and bans, though. Now it'll be a more interesting escape, but it didn't occur to me that Superbowl Sunday would impact this.

[Chenier]

Intrigue? What intrigue? There's nothing to do. It's pointless. Jonsu has the top rank now, and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Why bother? That sure sounds GREAT for intrigue. Do you actually believe that?

[De-Legro]

I'd like to first say that I hope noone ragequits. I'll be forthcoming with any pertinent information if anyone wants to create a magistrate case, but it was a judgement call and I saw the game mechanics and RP for the character and made that call. I want no OOC hard feelings and accept any judgement rendered.

If it is any consolation, Enoch has plotted against most of Dwilight since arriving. I've played this character as a weasily smart-ass since the beginning. He and Bowie talked of different ways to undermine SA quite often. I tried to make sure that he put on a good face, but there were tell-tale signs that he was dicking you over.

I also want to point out that I spoke with Stabbity and asked him not to simply destroy the religion. I asked that he kept it 'a viable entity'. It will certainly see people leave, but there have always been people who stayed with their church even when it reformed itself.

I had it suggested to me to declare myself second prophet. I'm sure we would have seen something like this eventually if Regency elections ran for a while. It simply didn't feel right for the character, in this situation.

I was going to continue RP announcements with explanations, but I demoted myself too low and was kicked.

If a situation occurs where a large institution looks to be destroyed, in an event which a large part of the involved player base didn't see coming nor felt able to influence, then there is going to be lots of fallout. It might just be character deletions, it could well be account deletions. That is just to be expected, people have invested tons of time into things, and losing them is hard.

The issue of if that should dictate your actions or not is not so clear cut. Personally I like to ensure when I set things in motion that there is plenty of scope for others to discover and work counter to my own plans. In this situation it appears people don't feel that happened. That the intrigue was something a small group participated in and that was largely impossible to detect, influence or stop. Now that of course happens in real life all the time, so in general I don't think there is anything wrong with it, its just not how I choose to play.

[OFaolain]

You've laid low a lot of people's hard work into their characters; I doubt they'll be happy about that, especially since they have no in-game recourse whatsoever.  There is no "protest" option against the head of a religion and since there are no schism mechanics we won't see someone leading the vast majority of the church away.  That is bound to be extremely frustrating and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if people whose characters are more invested into the church (and thus who are themselves more invested by the work they've put in on behalf of those characters) did quit.  Hoping against it is a pointless gesture, and that goes for both of you.  If you've ever played Diplomacy you know there are going to be actual hard feelings for what you did in the game; the only question is whether people get over them.

Will this kill SA? I don't know, but it is extremely obnoxious.  Is this a circumvention of game mechanics?  I mean, only in that there is no recourse whatsoever.  If you look at this in a historical light, there would be an Anti-Prophet in Morek in roughly *now*.  That is impossible in Battlemaster; since roughly half of Dwilight is part of SA, I hope this can in some way move up the timetable on adding schisms to the game.

With that said, are you amenable to an OOC schism agreement?  I mean it'd render priests basically powerless at working against the other part of the schismatic faction but it would allow people to roleplay acceptance or rejection of the new "Prophet" while retaining their religion.

Also everything De-Legro said.

[pcw27]

Intrigue? What intrigue? There's nothing to do. It's pointless. Jonsu has the top rank now, and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Why bother? That sure sounds GREAT for intrigue. Do you actually believe that?

Not necessarily. For one thing people can become priests and refuse to obey Jonsu's orders. They can attack the realm harboring her until it relents, bans her and attempts to execute her.

I agree it is way to hard to fight back.

[dustole]

I feel that this us total abuse.  Jonsu was a declared heretic.   She shouldn't have been able to join the religion. 


This might be it for me to. 

[De-Legro]

Not necessarily. For one thing people can become priests and refuse to obey Jonsu's orders. They can attack the realm harboring her until it relents, bans her and attempts to execute her.

I agree it is way to hard to fight back.

I think you miss the power that the leader of the religion has in game mechanics.

I feel that this us total abuse.  Jonsu was a declared heretic.   She shouldn't have been able to join the religion. 


This might be it for me to. 

I think this proves something I have thought for a while. Guilds and Religions need a way to set up a more distributed power structure. While the existing structure should remain an option, it would also be good to have a system that enforces votes for things like promoting someone to a full member.

[Stabbity]

You've laid low a lot of people's hard work into their characters; I doubt they'll be happy about that, especially since they have no in-game recourse whatsoever.  There is no "protest" option against the head of a religion and since there are no schism mechanics we won't see someone leading the vast majority of the church away.  That is bound to be extremely frustrating and honestly I wouldn't be surprised if people whose characters are more invested into the church (and thus who are themselves more invested by the work they've put in on behalf of those characters) did quit.  Hoping against it is a pointless gesture, and that goes for both of you.  If you've ever played Diplomacy you know there are going to be actual hard feelings for what you did in the game; the only question is whether people get over them.

Will this kill SA? I don't know, but it is extremely obnoxious.  Is this a circumvention of game mechanics?  I mean, only in that there is no recourse whatsoever.  If you look at this in a historical light, there would be an Anti-Prophet in Morek in roughly *now*.  That is impossible in Battlemaster; since roughly half of Dwilight is part of SA, I hope this can in some way move up the timetable on adding schisms to the game.

With that said, are you amenable to an OOC schism agreement?  I mean it'd render priests basically powerless at working against the other part of the schismatic faction but it would allow people to roleplay acceptance or rejection of the new "Prophet" while retaining their religion.

Also everything De-Legro said.

There are plenty of options from here. Jonsu may command the Church, but the religion isn't tangible. Its more than the numbers the game tells you in regards to temples and followers. I have always been, and will continue to remain, open to interesting ideas so long as it makes sense for Jonsu as a character. Yes, the lack of a proper schism mechanic sucks, but it has worked against me in the past as well.

And yes Chenier, intrigue. Intrigue lead to this, and good intrigue could fix it again. Easily? No. But taking over the biggest religion in the game wasn't easy either. This thing, played right by the right people could blow up in Jonsu's face, hard.

[Chenier]

Not necessarily. For one thing people can become priests and refuse to obey Jonsu's orders. They can attack the realm harboring her until it relents, bans her and attempts to execute her.

I agree it is way to hard to fight back.

And cause the loss of most of the religion's followers? Not to mention that our own realms are much more exposed to this kind of behavior than hers is.

Her realm supports her. Even if we went to outright destroy Niselur, she could just hop on a ship until the realm is deleted from the database and never even risk capture. She'd likely just go to Asylon, though, which is confy with the Zuma on one side, the seas on another, and Niselur on the other. And without significant SA following in most of their core regions. No way we could crack that nut.

Resistance is utterly futile. Dishman used the click to win button. Nothing more to do. Attempting to resist is to legitimize this click to win situation.