Sanguis Astroism

[pcw27]

And have spent actual years putting real effort into SA while having no recourse against the power now wielded by the individual in question in the organization.  If I had been there from the beginning I'd probably be pissed enough not to come back too; though I have had two accounts auto-deleted due to losing interest so take that with a grain of salt.

The thing about SA is the true power comes from its player base. If someone founds a new astroist inspired religion now they have a good shot at having it spread like wild fire. That would itself be a continuation of the SA people spent so long building. Sure the temples will be smaller at first and it will take a while to convert the peasants but eventually the new church will catch up to the old one.

[vonGenf]

You might THINK you left a reasonable obvious trail of dishonesty, but the fact that several highly active and savvy players were completely blind sided suggest it might not have been as obvious as you though.

I knew Enoch was bad news; Pierre warned the Elder Council and worked quite a lot to push it to do something about Swordfell back then. I'm quite flabbergasted to learn he could have been made regent. There were some signs sent, some subtle ones in direct letters, but I remember at least one very clear RP.

[pcw27]

I knew Enoch was bad news; Pierre warned the Elder Council and worked quite a lot to push it to do something about Swordfell back then. I'm quite flabbergasted to learn he could have been made regent. There were some signs sent, some subtle ones in direct letters, but I remember at least one very clear RP.

You know they actually declared an election void so they could have a do over and make sure Enoch won instead of me.

[Anaris]

You know they actually declared an election void so they could have a do over and make sure Enoch won instead of me.

Well, when people are that determined to give power to a nutcase…

[De-Legro]

The thing about SA is the true power comes from its player base. If someone founds a new astroist inspired religion now they have a good shot at having it spread like wild fire. That would itself be a continuation of the SA people spent so long building. Sure the temples will be smaller at first and it will take a while to convert the peasants but eventually the new church will catch up to the old one.

Its the time and resources spent on the Temples and followers that prevent people from considering this avenue. We are talking about years of gold poured into the infrastructure. Few people are really going to want to do all that again just to get the new church to replace the old. That is assuming you even could. Remember that many of the members of SA are likely to be semi inactive. I would think at best you might get 60-70% of the SA Lords to convert to the new religion, and that is optimistic. Even if all the "leaders" pushed for the new break away, chances are you will never recreate the level of success of SA, and for some people that just won't be good enough.

[pcw27]

Its the time and resources spent on the Temples and followers that prevent people from considering this avenue. We are talking about years of gold poured into the infrastructure. Few people are really going to want to do all that again just to get the new church to replace the old. That is assuming you even could. Remember that many of the members of SA are likely to be semi inactive. I would think at best you might get 60-70% of the SA Lords to convert to the new religion, and that is optimistic. Even if all the "leaders" pushed for the new break away, chances are you will never recreate the level of success of SA, and for some people that just won't be good enough.

But think of it from the perspective of the new players. Now they have a chance to build something big. SA took a lot of work that's true and many of us veterans spent years building it. That legacy will live on in the new sect. The history of SA is far more interesting to me then the number of followers or size of its temples.

[De-Legro]

But think of it from the perspective of the new players. Now they have a chance to build something big. SA took a lot of work that's true and many of us veterans spent years building it. That legacy will live on in the new sect. The history of SA is far more interesting to me then the number of followers or size of its temples.

That would assume a influx of new players, that is something we haven't had in a long long time. The reality right now is that we aren't replacing the veterans leaving the game without major events causing rage quits. If a sizeable group really wanted to try and replicate SA we would have seen serious attempts on other islands. Chances are if SA implodes, you won't see its like again.

[Daycryn]

I'm pretty sure the only one who would connect Enoch with Jonsu is Rabisu. Jonsu and Enoch became associated when Jonsu was Luminary of the Maddening, hunting down Bowie's mystic cult that took root in Morek that I'm sure next to one was aware of either.

Honestly, that may have happened, but I wasn't saving letters in BM back then and as a player I don't remember Enoch until rather later. Enoch's action did seem to come out of left field. Maybe that'd be different if I kept detailed dossiers and records like I do nowadays, but otherwise if Enoch was leaving breadcrumbs they were very very small. I'll go back and see but so far my impression has been that it's been a touch too subtle, especially in comparison to the not-subtle consequence the progression has resulted in.

Which I get, if you don't want other characters to know your character is plotting betrayal, obviously you're not going to telegraph that to other characters. On the other hand, roleplays that players read (but which characters wouldn't know about) can serve to telegraph to other players what's going on, so that it doesn't come as a surprise, and what we see is a believable character progression and a narrative we can figure on having a part in.

[De-Legro]

Honestly, that may have happened, but I wasn't saving letters in BM back then and as a player I don't remember Enoch until rather later. Enoch's action did seem to come out of left field. Maybe that'd be different if I kept detailed dossiers and records like I do nowadays, but otherwise if Enoch was leaving breadcrumbs they were very very small. I'll go back and see but so far my impression has been that it's been a touch too subtle, especially in comparison to the not-subtle consequence the progression has resulted in.

Which I get, if you don't want other characters to know your character is plotting betrayal, obviously you're not going to telegraph that to other characters. On the other hand, roleplays that players read (but which characters wouldn't know about) can serve to telegraph to other players what's going on, so that it doesn't come as a surprise, and what we see is a believable character progression and a narrative we can figure on having a part in.

While that is ideally true, far to many people fear players using such OOC knowledge so unfortunately that is not the culture that has been fostered in game.

[pcw27]

That would assume a influx of new players, that is something we haven't had in a long long time. The reality right now is that we aren't replacing the veterans leaving the game without major events causing rage quits. If a sizeable group really wanted to try and replicate SA we would have seen serious attempts on other islands. Chances are if SA implodes, you won't see its like again.

We weren't seeing an influx of new players because until recently the continent was stagnant. Naturally players would lose interest if they joined a peaceful realm with nothing going on. Now when new players show up they should be getting invited to join either side of a continent spanning religious war.

[De-Legro]

We weren't seeing an influx of new players because until recently the continent was stagnant. Now when new players show up they should be getting invited to join either side of a spiritual war.

We aren't seeing new players to the game at all. New players to the continent is also going to be hard. Most people that have a interest playing on Dwilight are already there. There will be small amounts obviously, but nothing in the order of what would be required to set up even a small amount of the success of SA.

[BarticaBoat]

Oh so when your toy you put years into is destroyed, it becomes a problem? 

This is the name of the game people. There was a nice core of players who thought they were the best, the smartest, the craftiest and well... you've been had. By an old timer and a newbie. Deal with it. Realms with literally a decade of history have been destroyed and they didn't take to the forums to complain, SA will persevere in a different form. Circle of life, yada yada.

[Daycryn]

While that is ideally true, far to many people fear players using such OOC knowledge so unfortunately that is not the culture that has been fostered in game.

Well take Abington. That realm had tons of characters - more than are in all of SA, I believe, and like SA it was the big guy on the block, lots of work and investment gone into it. Gauihu came along and basically just ended the whole thing. Executed some people, declared people rebels when they weren't, declared war on the whole continent, went stark raving mad. But it wasn't a surprise to anyone because the character was slowly spiralling into madness, sadism and megalomania for years. He put on the good PR face, but in the roleplays you still saw the progression from well-intentioned extremist to bat!@#$-insane king. Something like that in Enoch would have been welcome as a player.

I think in general its best to give people benefit of the doubt. That way if OOC info is abused somehow its easier to spot. The answer shouldn't be, keep everyone in the dark, that makes the game much less interesting.

[De-Legro]

Well take Abington. That realm had tons of characters - more than are in all of SA, I believe, and like SA it was the big guy on the block, lots of work and investment gone into it. Gauihu came along and basically just ended the whole thing. Executed some people, declared people rebels when they weren't, declared war on the whole continent, went stark raving mad. But it wasn't a surprise to anyone because the character was slowly spiralling into madness, sadism and megalomania for years. He put on the good PR face, but in the roleplays you still saw the progression from well-intentioned extremist to bat!@#$-insane king. Something like that in Enoch would have been welcome as a player.

I think in general its best to give people benefit of the doubt. That way if OOC info is abused somehow its easier to spot. The answer shouldn't be, keep everyone in the dark, that makes the game much less interesting.

I completely agree. I am just being realistic in stating that a sizeable group are not going to take the risk of posting RP's of this nature.

[Chenier]

They feel he's exploited a poorly designed game mechanic that made this takeover too easy.

I personally feel like the elders may have been a little careless in letting Enoch become Regent. Not in the sense that there was any evidence to link him to Jonsu but simply in the sense that he was kind of a quiet do nothing character. At that time the church was still pretty moderate and I was a less popular choice as a hardline zealot. They actually nullified the elections and started them again when I would have won. They were probably concerned that I was going to shake things up, sick our priests on Niselur and hurt the faith, so they went with the quiet guy. It's hard to say that the people who put a guy they knew nothing about in the highest seat of power were blameless when he started running amok.

"Let"?

SA tried to be inclusive. It was innovative in the sense that leadership positions are regularly elected. This is generally considered a good and fun thing, because it involves players. SA has a whooping, what, 13 elders? This game is losing more and more nobles, and in SA, like in most realm, it had become hard to find new blood. Most of the people with a minimum of ambition were already elders. And as Vita said, some supported Enoch without the slightest hint of what he was planning.

You know they actually declared an election void so they could have a do over and make sure Enoch won instead of me.

That election ended with barely any candidates making any announcement, and thus barely any elders having actually cast a vote. Also, I don't think the first vote had you as a winner, did it?

Its the time and resources spent on the Temples and followers that prevent people from considering this avenue. We are talking about years of gold poured into the infrastructure. Few people are really going to want to do all that again just to get the new church to replace the old. That is assuming you even could. Remember that many of the members of SA are likely to be semi inactive. I would think at best you might get 60-70% of the SA Lords to convert to the new religion, and that is optimistic. Even if all the "leaders" pushed for the new break away, chances are you will never recreate the level of success of SA, and for some people that just won't be good enough.

Why bother, if it can all happen again the next time the founder disappears? I sure wouldn't.

We aren't seeing new players to the game at all. New players to the continent is also going to be hard. Most people that have a interest playing on Dwilight are already there. There will be small amounts obviously, but nothing in the order of what would be required to set up even a small amount of the success of SA.

That's nonsense. The whole continent was at war.

Oh so when your toy you put years into is destroyed, it becomes a problem? 

This is the name of the game people. There was a nice core of players who thought they were the best, the smartest, the craftiest and well... you've been had. By an old timer and a newbie. Deal with it. Realms with literally a decade of history have been destroyed and they didn't take to the forums to complain, SA will persevere in a different form. Circle of life, yada yada.

I can't think of a single realm that, after years of existence, was destroyed by a click and win mechanic like this.

I completely agree. I am just being realistic in stating that a sizeable group are not going to take the risk of posting RP's of this nature.

He could have sent RPs, and it wouldn't have changed anything. By then, he already had total immunity.