Sanguis Astroism

[Daycryn]

Indeed, it is worth noting that all previous top Elders of all religions had the same powers that are now feared in the hands of Jonsu.

Yes because while one might expect the Pope to wield a great deal of power, if the Pope one day twirled his mustache and made some heretic the new Pope, it's a bit weird that the only option all the hiearachy really have are:

1. Sit around uncomfortably while Pope Evil does whatever.
2. Try to pretend to be Pope Evil's best friend in order to eventually somehow backstab him.
3. Leave the religion and become apostates, either trying to found a new religion of their own or just attacking the old one.

Am I wrong here? I mean these are basically the choices. Now dustole and stabbity have introduced Pope Evil 2 so you can choose Pope Evil 1 or Pope Evil 2 (even though Pope Evil 1 had no plausible reason to make Pope Evil 2 a Pope, and it's similarly weird that Pope Evil 1 even *can* do that in the first place) but that's not adding any real options.

[Zakilevo]

Why are people so angry? Elders were literally just sitting there. They weren't doing anything interesting.

At least let the guy do something interesting. Some people seem to be pissed that years of work are about to be destroyed but sometimes that is exactly what you need. Instead of dwelling on what happened, why not look forward to things that haven't happened? Who knows, Jonsu might even be the man who revitalizes the church. At least it seems he is making people talk.

[pcw27]

The real problem is he already failed repeatedly in the past to ascend to power through the player created charter, so instead he's gone through game mechanics that people have often complained were flawed.

[dustole]

In the grander scheme of things  Jonsu probably has the backing of Niselur and Asylon.   So she might have the power to pull off declaring herself the "pope".   



Why Alaster?   Well because it was my idea and because Kabrinski's hate Himoura's.    Alaster has been training himself to be a Paladin of the Stars for a long time.   Swordsmandship, Spell Casting and Oratory.   I think that SA needs another Prophet like Mathurin.   One who stays in the background and lets the church do its thing.  Only getting involved when things are drastic.   That is the route I am going with Alaster.   My RP was about him getting consumed by the Light of the Stars. 


So if my side wins this thing I can concentrate on a different continent for  a while.

[pcw27]

Why are people so angry? Elders were literally just sitting there. They weren't doing anything interesting.

At least let the guy do something interesting. Some people seem to be pissed that years of work are about to be destroyed but sometimes that is exactly what you need. Instead of dwelling on what happened, why not look forward to things that haven't happened? Who knows, Jonsu might even be the man who revitalizes the church. At least it seems he is making people talk.

The elders were doing a ton of !@#$. Once Katrina and I became light and luminary of the maddening we were preparing for an all out priest invasion on Niselur. That's what makes this coup all the more frustrating.

In the grander scheme of things  Jonsu probably has the backing of Niselur and Asylon.   So she might have the power to pull off declaring herself the "pope".   

If she really had their backing she should have founded a new religion so we could have a legitimate struggle between old and new Astroist beliefs rather then this exploitative coup that's left us with a bizzare ad hoc roleplay event.

[D`Este]

People, there are ways to deal with this IC, that you don't see them, doesn't mean there arent.

Personally I believe it's a good thing SA is getting damage, the enforced peace of the faith has created a too stable relation between major realms in the north. Wars against those realms used to be suicide. SA as well only went for their win, accepting only their outcome/solution. So don't be surprised if something is plotted against the all mighty SA that you can't stop despite having massive numbers. Accept what has happened, regroup, think what you can do and for godssake don't just sit on your ass and accept it ic-ly.

[Kaltenthal]

I dont know exactly what happened because Norgard was wounded but i saw that Jonsu has declared herself the new prophet. Ok. There where more then one    that tried that before. ´But as i see that, she also has the rank of prophet in the game mechanics, and that has to stop NOW!

Even if the player of Enoch has declared her the new prophet by making her so, there should be possibilities to PROTEST against that like you can when your regent does something against your will.

HELLO !! GM'S!! Please patch that ASAP! !!!!!!

[Anaris]

I dont know exactly what happened because Norgard was wounded but i saw that Jonsu has declared herself the new prophet. Ok. There where more then one    that tried that before. ´But as i see that, she also has the rank of prophet in the game mechanics, and that has to stop NOW!

Even if the player of Enoch has declared her the new prophet by making her so, there should be possibilities to PROTEST against that like you can when your regent does something against your will.

HELLO !! GM'S!! Please patch that ASAP! !!!!!!

No.

And who the hell do you think you are to be making loud demands of "GMs"?

Everything that happened, happened through perfectly IC game mechanics that are shared by every religion out there.

We understand that the result is controversial; however, it has been well-known for many years now that whoever holds the top rank in a guild or religion owns it, and there is no recourse if you don't like what they're doing.

The fact that this is the first time—in the nearly 10 years since religion was implemented in the game—that there has been what amounts to a hostile takeover of a major religion should be a strong indicator that the game mechanics are, by and large, working well.

Does it suck for those who don't want Prophet Jonsu? Yeah, it sure does. But so do a lot of other things in BattleMaster that are totally legitimate, like losing a rebellion or having your character banned, then executed.

[vonGenf]

Yes because while one might expect the Pope to wield a great deal of power, if the Pope one day twirled his mustache and made some heretic the new Pope, it's a bit weird that the only option all the hiearachy really have are:

1. Sit around uncomfortably while Pope Evil does whatever.
2. Try to pretend to be Pope Evil's best friend in order to eventually somehow backstab him.
3. Leave the religion and become apostates, either trying to found a new religion of their own or just attacking the old one.

Am I wrong here? I mean these are basically the choices. Now dustole and stabbity have introduced Pope Evil 2 so you can choose Pope Evil 1 or Pope Evil 2 (even though Pope Evil 1 had no plausible reason to make Pope Evil 2 a Pope, and it's similarly weird that Pope Evil 1 even *can* do that in the first place) but that's not adding any real options.

I fully agree that both schisms and/or some kind of protest option for religious Elders would be great additions to the game mechanic.

However, my point is that for all we know, any previous top Elder could have been an heretic too. You think you know what Jonsu is going is going to do and you don't like it, but Justin is allowed to play the game, and there is no indication that he would abuse his position in any way. And if he did, there are OOC recourses against that. I think it's fair to say he is the most watched player of BM right now, nothing is going to fly under the radar.

[Chenier]

I would like everyone to calm down some on this. Its certainly a controversial move with Jonsu gaining large power over the church's well being but I think we should let some things happen somewhat before deciding that SA is destroyed. Justin has shown he is open to players' suggestions, although allowing Alaster to get the position isn't thrilling everyone else but at that same time, people can calmly give suggestions OOC of what they view as the best way for things to go other than Jonsu should quit because you don't like what he did. There is a difference between working with people to allow for fun and conflict to happen well and simply demanding he undo what he  did because you don't like it.

To be honest, I personally am not a huge fan of what has transpired exactly the way it was done but I am giving the player a chance, something most of you are not. Maybe Justin isn't trying to have Jonsu destroy SA or be a complete dictator, we don't really know until we at least give him a chance beyond the first several hours.

I am not saying Jonsu's actions are actually a good thing, but I am not saying they are necessarily bad either, I am saying we should give it a little time to actually see how things turn out, and reevaluate then.

Destroying SA can be done in more ways than just utterly collapsing it via game mechanics.

[Feylonis]

Yeah, no way now that I'm playing along while the two most hated people in SA are playing Game of Thrones with the church, and no one else can do anything to stop it. Short of dismantling the whole religion and starting over, or sucking up, I'm not sure there is anything that can be done. Do tell if we're missing something.

[vonGenf]

Do tell if we're missing something.

Barring a change in game mechanic, the other option I can think of is to kill them both; obviously that's far from trivial to achieve.

[Chenier]

Barring a change in game mechanic, the other option I can think of is to kill them both; obviously that's far from trivial to achieve.

Save utter stupidity on their part, it's impossible. And all Jonsu would need to do is take a royal, like Fulco, make him an elder, and BAM: unbannable loyal elder "priest".

[vonGenf]

Save utter stupidity on their part, it's impossible. And all Jonsu would need to do is take a royal, like Fulco, make him an elder, and BAM: unbannable loyal elder "priest".

You could start talking to Fulco to win him back to your side then.

I'm only half sarcastic here. I understand the frustration, but the religion game has always been about talking to people and convincing them to do things they don't want to do because the gods want it. It's not so different here.

In-game, I imagine my reaction would be "the Stars have abandoned us! Repent your sins before it's too late!" This event happened, you may not like it, you may think the game mechanics should work differently ( I agree), but it is possible to keep playing the game in good faith.

[Chenier]

You could start talking to Fulco to win him back to your side then.

I'm only half sarcastic here. I understand the frustration, but the religion game has always been about talking to people and convincing them to do things they don't want to do because the gods want it. It's not so different here.

In-game, I imagine my reaction would be "the Stars have abandoned us! Repent your sins before it's too late!" This event happened, you may not like it, you may think the game mechanics should work differently ( I agree), but it is possible to keep playing the game in good faith.

It is not possible to keep playing the game in good faith with people who have no good faith when playing with you.