Sanguis Astroism

[Vellos]

I have no comment on any of this.

[Indirik]

There's really a ton of things the northern realms could have done, both directly and indirectly, to put even more pressure on Aurvandil. The list of things would be too long to enumerate. But they just didn't care enough for it. And now, it's too late.

I have to agree that, in a way, you are correct. The northern realms didn't care enough about the survival of the moot realms to bother putting the time and effort into it. If you really wanted the assistance of the northern realms badly enough, then you should have done more to secure it. As it was, the only urging I ever saw were efforts to get the church to declare crusade on Aurvandil. Now, perhaps some diplomatic concerns were raised among rulers that didn't get passed along. But I don't remember Sergio saying that the moot was asking for help, and for thousands of gold a week in donations to fund their war effort. I do remember Vellos asking for help among the SA elders, mostly urging crusade, but that was really kind of pointless, as the realm rulers were then not part of the elders of SA. And since the church wasn't going all crusade on Aurvandil, the elders really weren't involved. If you wanted help from the realms, you should have gone through the realms, not the religion.

[Chenier]

I have to agree that, in a way, you are correct. The northern realms didn't care enough about the survival of the moot realms to bother putting the time and effort into it. If you really wanted the assistance of the northern realms badly enough, then you should have done more to secure it. As it was, the only urging I ever saw were efforts to get the church to declare crusade on Aurvandil. Now, perhaps some diplomatic concerns were raised among rulers that didn't get passed along. But I don't remember Sergio saying that the moot was asking for help, and for thousands of gold a week in donations to fund their war effort. I do remember Vellos asking for help among the SA elders, mostly urging crusade, but that was really kind of pointless, as the realm rulers were then not part of the elders of SA. And since the church wasn't going all crusade on Aurvandil, the elders really weren't involved. If you wanted help from the realms, you should have gone through the realms, not the religion.

Fair enough.

I'm not convinced we could have succeeded in convicning them to do as much, but we indeed could have done more to try to make it happen.

[Arundel]

That's not very fair at all.

From a Lurian perspective, it was SA's endeavor to attack Aurvandil. If it wanted to keep up the campaign against them, it should have done more to preserve its best assets. It just so happens that the 'Moot is being destroyed now.

[Chenier]

That's not very fair at all.

From a Lurian perspective, it was SA's endeavor to attack Aurvandil. If it wanted to keep up the campaign against them, it should have done more to preserve its best assets. It just so happens that the 'Moot is being destroyed now.

Aurvandil started the war in conquest of Barca, the 'moot retaliated and brought in as many allies as it could to even the odds. It wasn't an SA initiative in any way...

[Indirik]

After Aurvandil invaded Barca, Terran chose to escalate the war, and continue to fight it. (OOC I understand that they refused several offers. Good or not, they would be better than being destroyed.) D'Hara decided not to join the war in defense of their allies, and after being forced in, decided to bow out again.

So, if Terran is on the verge of destruction, why wasn't D'Hara helping? You'd think they would want their moot ally to survive and prosper. Since D'Hara isn't helping, it can't be all that bad, can it?

In addition, to us in the north the war seems pretty tame. A bunch of nothing happening. Again, if it was so desparate and urgent, where are the battle reports and tales of massive armies marching to destruction of their enemies? Why aren't they sending messages to their allies asking for help? Terran seems to have pegged all their hopes on convincing the church to crusade or declare a massed war, rather than try to deal with the theocracies individually.

(Again, maybe they did, but I don't remember a lot of discussion about Terran requesting help and gold.)

[Vellos]

1. Why no battle reports
Because it was futile and useless. Aurvandil is fairly predictable; we realized that Mendicant ws pompous and isolated enough that he wouldn't respond much as long as we didn't poke him, provided that we kept our distance.

2. Why go through SA instead of realms
Because SA is available for foreigners. Hireshmont can't (or can't very easily) become Vasilif of Astrum. He can become Light of Sanguis Astroism. And Hireshmont tried to incite other key conversions too, with little success. SA was the tool we had on hand; and it's a useful investment long-run too, and is lots of fun gameplay (main reason for conversion was that actually). But going through the realms is harder than you might think.

3. D'hara's uninvolvement
Again, diplomatic maneuver. Mendicant said he would honor the truce. He's arrogant enough to do so, even at significant personal disadvantage. We were trying to play a long-game to wipe out Falkirk, then move the front to Aurvandil.

Honestly, this war was winnable if there were just two things different:
1. If we had wiped out Falkirk in the Feb. 26 campaign
2. If Asylon hadn't entered

Taking out Falkirk might have been possible if we hadn't had so many diplomatic mixups and if we hadn't been fighting the western campaign. Now it looks like a very distant possibility, if ever (though I'm still cheering for D'Hara/Fissoa/LN on that front!).

Asylon's entrance simply makes war impossible for the Moot. We can't be fighting on both fronts.

With Falkirk still in the game, and thus no military aid coming west against Aurvandil, we can't keep up the fight.

And thus, in hindsight, the failure here is one of over-reach: Terran/Barca should have sat out the Feb. 26 campaign to avoid ticking off Mendicant and provoking a series of counter-measures, like Asylon's invasion. We should have contributed to an attack on Falkirk if anything, or just sat in Barca yelling across the border.

I still think, even with the distance, if Falkirk had been knocked out at the Lurias could have been kept on track, Aurvandil would have been beatable; maybe even with Asylonian attacks. But now? Nope. Not gonna win this one.

[dustole]

Terran became so "good" at politics that they really cant be trusted.  Terrans offer for surrender was laughable.  It would be silly for Aurvandil to abandon Asylon. They are the only realm to help them out.  If they betrsy Asylon, then Terran gets larger and Aurvandil has to deal with them later.

[Indirik]

1. Why no battle reports
Because it was futile and useless. Aurvandil is fairly predictable; we realized that Mendicant ws pompous and isolated enough that he wouldn't respond much as long as we didn't poke him, provided that we kept our distance.

The lack of battles and battle reports removed all sense of urgency. Why hurry, and why go through all the trouble if nothing is happening? If there were no battles, you should have tried harder to explain to all involved why there were no battles, and what the consequences would be of renewing the conflict.

2. Why go through SA instead of realms
Because SA is available for foreigners. Hireshmont can't (or can't very easily) become Vasilif of Astrum. He can become Light of Sanguis Astroism. And Hireshmont tried to incite other key conversions too, with little success. SA was the tool we had on hand; and it's a useful investment long-run too, and is lots of fun gameplay (main reason for conversion was that actually). But going through the realms is harder than you might think.

You could still have gone through a parallel path of rulers and/or diplomats. When SA repeatedly refused to crusade, you must have realized that it just wasnt going to happen, and that other measures would be needed.

Although, I do have to admit that seeing all flailing that people were doing trying to get troops all the way down to Aurvandil was embarrassing. I told them long, long ago that there was no way that Astrum was gong to get troops down there for battle. The best we could conceivably do was defend Terran. And that's a boring job that no one is going to do long term.

3. D'hara's uninvolvement
Again, diplomatic maneuver. Mendicant said he would honor the truce. He's arrogant enough to do so, even at significant personal disadvantage. We were trying to play a long-game to wipe out Falkirk, then move the front to Aurvandil.

I can see that. But you do have to admit that it really took a lot of the sense of urgency and need out of the war. If the moot can't bother to defend themselves, then what's the point of everyone else jumping in to do it?

[Perth]

Terran became so "good" at politics that they really cant be trusted.  Terrans offer for surrender was laughable.  It would be silly for Aurvandil to abandon Asylon. They are the only realm to help them out.  If they betrsy Asylon, then Terran gets larger and Aurvandil has to deal with them later.

Because Mendicant doesn't care for alliances really? And because he doesn't even really need them.

[Arundel]

Aurvandil started the war in conquest of Barca, the 'moot retaliated and brought in as many allies as it could to even the odds. It wasn't an SA initiative in any way...

Wrong on that last bit. Morek was pressuring D'Hara and Lurian Nova for quite some time, so that both of them would stop fighting each other and turn their efforts southwards. If that's not initiative, then I don't know what is. So while I understood who started the whole thing, from a Lurian perspective, it seemed like the theocracies had more to do with this than everyone's letting on. That's echoed by Corsanctum's commitment in mediating between D'Hara and Luria Nova as well.

[Perth]

Wrong on that last bit. Morek was pressuring D'Hara and Lurian Nova for quite some time, so that both of them would stop fighting each other and turn their efforts southwards. If that's not initiative, then I don't know what is. So while I understood who started the whole thing, from a Lurian perspective, it seemed like the theocracies had more to do with this than everyone's letting on. That's echoed by Corsanctum's commitment in mediating between D'Hara and Luria Nova as well.

But the Moot-Aurvandil war was already going by then, and had been for a while. Yeah, by that point the theocracies had committed to the cause so of course they wanted D'Hara and Luria to focus on the task at hand, but that doesn't mean the theocracies started it. If it is the Lurian perspective that the theocracies started it, then they simply were not paying attention to what was going on before they started their war with D'Hara.

[Chenier]

I can see that. But you do have to admit that it really took a lot of the sense of urgency and need out of the war. If the moot can't bother to defend themselves, then what's the point of everyone else jumping in to do it?

Obviously not how we are seeing things, but I can see how the North would see it that way.

Wrong on that last bit. Morek was pressuring D'Hara and Lurian Nova for quite some time, so that both of them would stop fighting each other and turn their efforts southwards. If that's not initiative, then I don't know what is. So while I understood who started the whole thing, from a Lurian perspective, it seemed like the theocracies had more to do with this than everyone's letting on. That's echoed by Corsanctum's commitment in mediating between D'Hara and Luria Nova as well.

Lurian dillusions are  so grandiose it's amusing. As Perth said, D'Hara had fought Aurvandil plenty before the Lurias backstabbed us. Morek did not pressure much, nor long, and did so only way after the war started. And why did they do this pressure? Because Terran convinced them it was the right thing to do.

[Anaris]

Lurian dillusions are  so grandiose it's amusing.

Do you not understand the difference between delusions and perspectives different from your own?

'Cause, y'know, if you don't, then that would actually explain a lot.

[Lorgan]

I thought it was established years ago - before the forum even came into existence - that he doesn't.