Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1045680 times)

Stabbity

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2415: March 17, 2013, 03:41:24 PM »
But the Moot-Aurvandil war was already going by then, and had been for a while. Yeah, by that point the theocracies had committed to the cause so of course they wanted D'Hara and Luria to focus on the task at hand, but that doesn't mean the theocracies started it. If it is the Lurian perspective that the theocracies started it, then they simply were not paying attention to what was going on before they started their war with D'Hara.

Please, stop, and read. Okay. Do it again.

From a Lurian Perspective, the theocracies had more to do with the war effort than is being let on in this forum. It is NOT the Lurian perspective that the theocracies STARTED the war.

Next time pay a little attention before getting bigoted, Chenier, Perth.

But honestly, the theocracies intervening in the D'haran War of Interference was probably their most notable contribution to the war.
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Kwanstein

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2416: March 17, 2013, 05:14:00 PM »
Why did the Astroists care about the Falkirkian-D'Haran-Lurian love triangle to begin with? That just makes no sense.

vonGenf

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2417: March 17, 2013, 05:30:45 PM »
Why did the Astroists care about the Falkirkian-D'Haran-Lurian love triangle to begin with? That just makes no sense.

That is a very good question. You will understand much if you can figure out the answer.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2418: March 17, 2013, 05:52:36 PM »
After everything that has been said in all these various Dwilight war threads, you can't even venture to make a guess as to the reason?
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Kwanstein

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2419: March 17, 2013, 06:12:20 PM »
I think the doctrine was that killing off Falkirk would have hindered Aurvandil somehow, but I don't see any logic behind that. I also don't see why the SA realms were concerned with Aurvandil to begin with. One could say that Aurvandil is a heathen realm, but that falls short of an explanation when you consider that all of the realms Aurvandil is beating up on are also heathen realms, along with Luria Nova and Asylon, both of which are closer and actually in range of striking against. So basically SA going out of it's way to advocate war against Falkirk seems arbitrary.

Anaris

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2420: March 17, 2013, 06:24:35 PM »
"Not an SA theocracy" does not equate to "heathen realm."

There's a lot of SA in Luria. In fact, the Queen and at least one of the Dukes are followers of the Stars.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2421: March 17, 2013, 06:37:55 PM »
There are many reasons that various SA realms could want to attack Aurvandil. None of it has anything to do with them being "heathen".

1) Aurvandil is the last of the self-proclaimed "League of Free Nations" that declared war on Sanguis Astroism in general, and Astrum specifically, in an effort to destroy it. (That's an approximate description, but close enough.)  This was spear-headed by Averoth and Caerwyn, with moral support from Madina. All three of those are dead. It turns out that everyone forgot about Aurvandil's participation in this, probably because they mostly kept their mouth shut, and were not publicly vocal about it. It was forgotten about until various new nobles joined SA, and brought it back to the forefront.

2) Mendicant declared that he wanted to "destroy religion", and that he views gods as nothing more than a pale imitation of monarchs. Aurvandil follows "monarchism", which is not a worship of monarchs, but a view that all you need is a monarch, and that gods are worthless/useless/powerless/etc. This is a paraphrasing, and Mendicant says that he supposedly never meant that he wanted to destroy all religion. Nevertheless, he said it. It is easily interpretable as "I'm better than any mere gods." Just about every religion on the island took this as a direct threat to them, and referred to it as Aurvandil's war on religion.

3) Aurvandil is sheltering Orthodox Astroism, a heretical Astroist faith led by there heretical Allison Kabrinski. Aurvandil even helped her establish her heretical faith by giving her a lordship from which to found the religion.

4) Falkirk is a buffer realm between the Lurias and Aurvandil. Having Falkirk wiped out frees up the Luria, Fissoa, and D'Hara to join the war on Aurvandil. In a way, Falkirk is nothing more than a pawn to everyone concerned. (Except perhaps to Falkirk themselves. :P ) Aurvandil wants it to survive as a continued distraction and buffer against the Lurias. (Although Aurvandil will vehemently deny this, that is the very function it performs, intended or not.) Everyone else wants it dead so that the Lurias and Fissoa can get on with the true business of wiping out Aurvandil. That and damn near everyone involved finds them to be extremely rude.

5) Falkirk and Aurvandil are inhabited by a lot of nobles that were in Thulsoma and Averoth, both of whom defied and attacked Sanguis Astroism, and Astroist realms. They are vocal opponents of Sanguis Astroism in general.

I'm sure there are probably a few other reasons, but those are the ones off the top of my head.

I hope you can see that in order to figure out why things are happening, you need to look beyond the immediate present. You need to look back into the past and learn the history of the various realms involved. And then you need to look at the effects of each of these intermediate situations, and figure out what this will accomplishing the global picture. Dwilight is a huge island with lots of realms. They are all interwoven to a great extent. Now that almost all the rogue lands are taken, and the realms are all bordering each other, politics gets pretty hectic and tangled. Nothing is as simple as it seems.
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Kwanstein

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2422: March 17, 2013, 06:45:40 PM »
Ah, I see that a lot of those things happened before I joined, so thanks for explaining them. Now the war against Aurvandil actually makes sense beyond Terran alliance whoring :P

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2423: March 17, 2013, 08:36:58 PM »
From a Lurian Perspective, the theocracies had more to do with the war effort than is being let on in this forum. It is NOT the Lurian perspective that the theocracies STARTED the war.

Right. To clarify even further, I'd like to highlight the word "attack." For the duration of the war prior to Luria's involvement, the republics were on the defensive. It was SA who managed to form an attacking force out of its Toprakian neighbors, not the republics.

Also, in reference to Indirik's most recent post, there seems to be two different conflicts going on. There's the Aurvandil + Asylon war against the 'Moot, and there's the Aurvandil vs. SA coldwar. My criticism was directed towards SA because they should have preserved the 'Moot, since the 'Moot was one of their more valuable assets in their own struggle against Aurvandil.

Edit: was for is in the last sentence.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 08:39:10 PM by Arundel »
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Tandaros

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2424: March 17, 2013, 09:35:45 PM »
There are many reasons that various SA realms could want to attack Aurvandil. None of it has anything to do with them being "heathen".

1) Aurvandil is the last of the self-proclaimed "League of Free Nations" that declared war on Sanguis Astroism in general, and Astrum specifically, in an effort to destroy it. (That's an approximate description, but close enough.)  This was spear-headed by Averoth and Caerwyn, with moral support from Madina. All three of those are dead. It turns out that everyone forgot about Aurvandil's participation in this, probably because they mostly kept their mouth shut, and were not publicly vocal about it. It was forgotten about until various new nobles joined SA, and brought it back to the forefront.

2) Mendicant declared that he wanted to "destroy religion", and that he views gods as nothing more than a pale imitation of monarchs. Aurvandil follows "monarchism", which is not a worship of monarchs, but a view that all you need is a monarch, and that gods are worthless/useless/powerless/etc. This is a paraphrasing, and Mendicant says that he supposedly never meant that he wanted to destroy all religion. Nevertheless, he said it. It is easily interpretable as "I'm better than any mere gods." Just about every religion on the island took this as a direct threat to them, and referred to it as Aurvandil's war on religion.

3) Aurvandil is sheltering Orthodox Astroism, a heretical Astroist faith led by there heretical Allison Kabrinski. Aurvandil even helped her establish her heretical faith by giving her a lordship from which to found the religion.

4) Falkirk is a buffer realm between the Lurias and Aurvandil. Having Falkirk wiped out frees up the Luria, Fissoa, and D'Hara to join the war on Aurvandil. In a way, Falkirk is nothing more than a pawn to everyone concerned. (Except perhaps to Falkirk themselves. :P ) Aurvandil wants it to survive as a continued distraction and buffer against the Lurias. (Although Aurvandil will vehemently deny this, that is the very function it performs, intended or not.) Everyone else wants it dead so that the Lurias and Fissoa can get on with the true business of wiping out Aurvandil. That and damn near everyone involved finds them to be extremely rude.

5) Falkirk and Aurvandil are inhabited by a lot of nobles that were in Thulsoma and Averoth, both of whom defied and attacked Sanguis Astroism, and Astroist realms. They are vocal opponents of Sanguis Astroism in general.

I'm sure there are probably a few other reasons, but those are the ones off the top of my head.

I hope you can see that in order to figure out why things are happening, you need to look beyond the immediate present. You need to look back into the past and learn the history of the various realms involved. And then you need to look at the effects of each of these intermediate situations, and figure out what this will accomplishing the global picture. Dwilight is a huge island with lots of realms. They are all interwoven to a great extent. Now that almost all the rogue lands are taken, and the realms are all bordering each other, politics gets pretty hectic and tangled. Nothing is as simple as it seems.

Wow, well said.

Chenier

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2425: March 17, 2013, 09:40:59 PM »
Please, stop, and read. Okay. Do it again.

From a Lurian Perspective, the theocracies had more to do with the war effort than is being let on in this forum. It is NOT the Lurian perspective that the theocracies STARTED the war.

Next time pay a little attention before getting bigoted, Chenier, Perth.

But honestly, the theocracies intervening in the D'haran War of Interference was probably their most notable contribution to the war.

The D'HARAN WAR OF INTERFERENCE? Hahahahahahahaha! Good one.

This is not perspective. The Astroists seeing the war as of relative importance due to moot members not all being active in it is perspective. Crap like this, however, is pure dillusion. Because the "D'Haran war of interference" is likely a reference to D'Hara backing LV up, with no regards whatsoever to the fact that the Lurias started the war and that LV was the last party to make any declaration of war in the conflict. The name given couldn't be any less accurate of what the war really was, unless you mean it in a "the war to interfere with D'Hara's contributions to the 'moot" kind of way.
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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2426: March 17, 2013, 09:53:16 PM »
Please, stop, and read. Okay. Do it again.

From a Lurian Perspective, the theocracies had more to do with the war effort than is being let on in this forum. It is NOT the Lurian perspective that the theocracies STARTED the war.

Next time pay a little attention before getting bigoted, Chenier, Perth.

But honestly, the theocracies intervening in the D'haran War of Interference was probably their most notable contribution to the war.


Um, not sure how in any way I was being "bigoted." But okay.

I clearly acknowledged that he was talking about Luria's perspective. I was just saying that they weren't paying much attention, then.
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Chenier

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2427: March 17, 2013, 10:06:15 PM »

Um, not sure how in any way I was being "bigoted." But okay.

I clearly acknowledged that he was talking about Luria's perspective. I was just saying that they weren't paying much attention, then.

They don't even pay attention to what they do themselves. I bet most Lurians are utterly clueless to the fact that they were the ones to declare war on D'Hara, and not the other way around, and that LV was the one to declare war to support D'Hara, and not the other way around, from what a few of them have stated on the forums. Utterly clueless people, don't hire them to write any history books...
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Stabbity

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2428: March 17, 2013, 10:37:59 PM »
They don't even pay attention to what they do themselves. I bet most Lurians are utterly clueless to the fact that they were the ones to declare war on D'Hara, and not the other way around, and that LV was the one to declare war to support D'Hara, and not the other way around, from what a few of them have stated on the forums. Utterly clueless people, don't hire them to write any history books...

Just shows D'hara is, and continues to be completely ignorant of Lurian politics, even when (perhaps especially) it concerns them. Especially the long building rift between Luria Vesperi, and the rest of Luria. Luria declared war on D'hara initially, then pretty much ignored D'hara for a significant period of time. D'hara being incapable of staging any sort of invasion against Luria in the time period between the initial war declaration by Luria Nova/Solaria and the new outbreak of conflict when D'hara got involved with LV. In that time frame, Luria reorganized with Luria Nova absorbing Solaria. During all of this, Luria really could care less about D'hara. However, rising tensions were present due to Luria Vesperi's breaking of the articles of the Lurian Confederacy by refusing to aid in the initial war against D'hara. War broke out between LN and LV, and D'hara placed itself in it. Thus, the second war (only a single war declaration was made, but it was two distinct periods of conflict) is the D'haran War of Interference. Lurians don't appreciate auslanders meddling in our affairs.
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Feylonis

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #2429: March 17, 2013, 10:40:24 PM »
I thought Luria considered D'Hara one of theirs...?

Or is that reasoning used only when it's convenient?