Is it ever acceptable to plan things OOC?

[Heq]

I dunno, I'm a big OOC fan when it comes to changing flavours.  Like it or not people join realms to tell certain types of stories and while there might be all the IC reasons in the world to do certain things, it might not be fair to everyone else.

Or if a character needs to be changed because they don't "work" (we all know that we have great concepts that don't pan out), getting some OOC feedback can really help.  Oddly I find that realms with more OOC chatter tend to get along much better because you remember that there are people on the other side of the characters and that really, this is about fun.

[Shizzle]

I always try and handle it IC and go OOC only when I feel someone is acting completely unmedieval.

And I mean completely. When it's only a slight tinge of modernism I still try and handle it IC with good old noble bigotry and arrogance.

So your fully written legislation doesn't hint towards modernism? :)

[Shenron]

So your fully written legislation doesn't hint towards modernism? :)

It doesn't count when the legislation is trying to repel modernism  8)

[Shizzle]

It doesn't count when the legislation is trying to repel modernism  8)

... :P

[egamma]

It doesn't count when the legislation is trying to repel modernism  8)

"Please sign my internet petition against the spread of technology"

[vonGenf]

Honestly, I'm not sure.  I have the story second-hand at best from people who were a little hazy on their memories.

Well, for the sake of discussion, would you agree that an OOC vote would have been wrong?

In real life, I feel bound by the result of a vote. By the mere fact of participating, I basically agree that I will go by whatever the result is. If I think that there is one outcome I would heavily disagree with, then I don't want a vote to be held at all.

By holding a OOC vote in a realm, you are basically saying "Here's an addendum to the social contract. When you specifically play in that realm, you must play your character in that fashion. If you don't like it, leave the realm. No IC opposition will be tolerated because we've decided to do this OOC for the good of the realm."

And that's wrong.

[Chenier]

Is that any different than when an IC clique does the same thing?

[Bedwyr]

Well, for the sake of discussion, would you agree that an OOC vote would have been wrong?

...No?  Point was to find out what the players in that realm wanted to do to shake things up.  IC disagreements about it were part of the fun (and indeed the mercenary phase did not last past the next Ruler, who reversed the decision, and was elected at least in part because he was going to do that).

[Tom]

By holding a OOC vote in a realm, you are basically saying "Here's an addendum to the social contract. When you specifically play in that realm, you must play your character in that fashion. If you don't like it, leave the realm. No IC opposition will be tolerated because we've decided to do this OOC for the good of the realm."

And that's wrong.

That depends.

You can not modify or overrule the Social Contract or parts of it. And you can not exclude people, so saying "you have to be X in order to play in this realm" is wrong. However, setting a tone for a realm, giving it some atmosphere, culture, etc. is great. And in part that almost has to be done OOC because culture is a complicated thing that is very hard to bring across in a limited game environment. Your character would've grown up that way and consider it normal, but the only way to make you feel like that is by telling you OOC.

And in most cases, people going against the realm culture "IC" are not really playing that much IC. Going against your culture is not something you decide upon on a lazy afternoon, it's a major, life-changing event.
Also, if the culture is extensively developed, there is such a thing as respect for the other players' time and effort.

If, however, the thing you need to do or be is something OOC, like being on the forum, or in a specific IRC channel, or of a certain nationality or whatever, now that's certainly something I wouldn't welcome.

[vonGenf]

Is that any different than when an IC clique does the same thing?

Yes; forming and holding together your IC clique is playing the game.

[vonGenf]

You can not modify or overrule the Social Contract or parts of it. And you can not exclude people, so saying "you have to be X in order to play in this realm" is wrong. However, setting a tone for a realm, giving it some atmosphere, culture, etc. is great. And in part that almost has to be done OOC because culture is a complicated thing that is very hard to bring across in a limited game environment. Your character would've grown up that way and consider it normal, but the only way to make you feel like that is by telling you OOC.

I can agree with you for established culture. This can be written, for example, on the wiki; a new player who acts contrary to some historical events should be told to go inform themselves about the realm and come back.

However, setting up a culture from scratch should be done IC.

I always disagreed, for example, with people who start a realm through colony or secession and then decide "This is going to be a Viking/Samurai/whatever realm". It is fine to play your character that way; it is fine to play your ruler that way and favor other characters who go along with it; but I don't think it's fine to say OOC "This is the way "we" want this realm set up and if you don't like it you should go away".

And in most cases, people going against the realm culture "IC" are not really playing that much IC. Going against your culture is not something you decide upon on a lazy afternoon, it's a major, life-changing event.

Major, life-changing events are the spice of the game. They shouldn't happen every week; if they don't happen at least once in a character's lifetime, then it's not really worth playing them.

Also, if the culture is extensively developed, there is such a thing as respect for the other players' time and effort.

Sure, and I agree with that, but that's even more true of IC effort. I find it much more worthwhile to see something built through the game than something prepared in a sandbox.

[Velax]

I always disagreed, for example, with people who start a realm through colony or secession and then decide "This is going to be a Viking/Samurai/whatever realm". It is fine to play your character that way; it is fine to play your ruler that way and favor other characters who go along with it; but I don't think it's fine to say OOC "This is the way "we" want this realm set up and if you don't like it you should go away".

Was that Bedwyr's point? That it was a vote the entire realm took part in and not just the ruler and her friends saying, "We're mercenaries now".

[vonGenf]

Was that Bedwyr's point? That it was a vote the entire realm took part in and not just the ruler and her friends saying, "We're mercenaries now".

What if you're a new player? Is it acceptable to say "We held a OOC vote two weeks ago and the results was that we would be mercenaries"?

What if you didn't want to be a mercenary but were outvoted? Do you leave the realm, or do you play your character as opposing the mercenery idea? But if you're allowed to just go against the new culture of the realm, then why hold a OOC vote in the first place?

Note that it is fine to play mercenaries, I have no problem with that. I only have a problem with the whole idea of OOC voting. I don't even have a problem if three or four people decide OOC that they will take their character in a certain direction beforehand, as long as they allow other to join them afterwards; but three or four people is a free association. The realm should not be a OOC meaningful unit.

[Velax]

What if you're a new player? Is it acceptable to say "We held a OOC vote two weeks ago and the results was that we would be mercenaries"?

Honestly? Too frigging bad. If a realm has a specific culture, it'll likely go into the realm summary newbies see before they join, so if they don't want to be mercenaries, don't join the mercenary realm.

What if you didn't want to be a mercenary but were outvoted?

Again, too bad. Majority rules. That's why we have votes. And you're really kinda using the extremes here. I very much doubt any realm has ever gone, "YOU MUST BE MERCENARIES AND RP AS SUCH OR YOU GET BANNED!!1!!1! I'm sure Arcaea had people who didn't RP as mercenaries and they were accepted fine.

Note that it is fine to play mercenaries, I have no problem with that. I only have a problem with the whole idea of OOC voting. I don't even have a problem if three or four people decide OOC that they will take their character in a certain direction beforehand, as long as they allow other to join them afterwards; but three or four people is a free association. The realm should not be a OOC meaningful unit.

That's your opinion. You're perfectly entitled to it. But stop trying to tell other people:

that's wrong.

[Tom]

What if you're a new player? Is it acceptable to say "We held a OOC vote two weeks ago and the results was that we would be mercenaries"?

Does the reason matter? "we're a mercenary realm" is the fact, it should be in the realm bulleting so your new player knew it before he joined the realm. Complaining about the sky being blue is dishonest.

Really, it doesn't matter much if the vote was OOC or IC, as long as it was not exclusive.

What if you didn't want to be a mercenary but were outvoted?

Again, the "OOC" in there doesn't matter, so this is entirely besides the point.

Note that it is fine to play mercenaries, I have no problem with that. I only have a problem with the whole idea of OOC voting. I don't even have a problem if three or four people decide OOC that they will take their character in a certain direction beforehand, as long as they allow other to join them afterwards; but three or four people is a free association. The realm should not be a OOC meaningful unit.

I don't mind realms having cultures, flavors and all that. Yeah, it's nicer to have a history behind it, things that really happened in the game. Just making a vote is certainly the least optimal approach, and you should only use it if things have gone pretty dull.

But I don't see anything wrong with people in a realm having a discussion about what their realm should be like, and then making it so.