Guild/Temple Estates

[Hroppa]

How about some form of notification when a player's rank in a religion entails some debt? (Or, maybe even better and more flexible, a customisable message per rank that's sent whenever someone's promoted.)

Right now, it doesn't seem to me that many players even notice whether they're racking up debt in a religion or not. There are pretty much no consequences that I've seen.

Yes, this is stuff that could potentially be done with the message system by a bunch of very active and attentive priests, who keep on top of when people sign up, and always follow up promotions with personal messages outlining duties. But that's not happening. This would be a useful RP tool, to ensure stronger obligations.

Edit: Also, stronger consequences for debt?

[De-Legro]

You already get a message every time your debt or grants are automatically incremented.

For example

Monthly Fee Paid   (16 days, 6 hours ago)
Your rank of Feather in "Cra'ithil" has to pay a monthly fee of 5 gold. Your balance with this religion has been adjusted accordingly.

[Hroppa]

Haha, good point... I suppose that just shows the limitations of a message reminder

[De-Legro]

It would be nice if the message told me what my current balance was. For instance with my Priest I only just discovered I had a 650 gold positive balance, I sure can't remember depositing that much money, and I don't get a monthly grant.

[vonGenf]

It would be nice if the message told me what my current balance was. For instance with my Priest I only just discovered I had a 650 gold positive balance, I sure can't remember depositing that much money, and I don't get a monthly grant.

Did you ever deposit money in a temple only to immediately use it for an enlargment? That still counts as a deposit.

[LilWolf]

Edit: Also, stronger consequences for debt?

Myah. As it is debt doesn't really do anything. Only time people notice it is when they want to leave the guild/religion. Also means that's about the only time most people pay their guild fees, which probably isn't that good.

The financial aspect of religion/guilds is far from being fun to deal with. It's a pain in the ass to be honest and I pity anyone who has to deal with in any moderately large scale. Sadly it's a necessary part and Tom seems to like it the way it is 

[Chenier]

I'd be in favour of automatic donations. Sure you can say that by the making people have to pay their own imposed "debts" but you'd be wrong. We need to accept people are lazy and try to work with that. Just putting it out there.

Considering religions are automatically taxed, now, I'd indeed consider it fair, but I don't think he will change his mind.

Would fit and be fair to therefore make the religion tax force someone to go and pick it up too, but I think that would be hell to code.

[Tom]

Myah. As it is debt doesn't really do anything. Only time people notice it is when they want to leave the guild/religion. Also means that's about the only time most people pay their guild fees, which probably isn't that good.

The financial aspect of religion/guilds is far from being fun to deal with. It's a pain in the ass to be honest and I pity anyone who has to deal with in any moderately large scale. Sadly it's a necessary part and Tom seems to like it the way it is 

What you guys need to do is come up with your own solutions. It's not that hard. How about "no promotions until you've paid your debt" for starters?

The entire point of the entire thing is that guilds (and religions are just a sub-type of guilds, really) are meant to be player-driven, not driven by game mechanics.

[Chenier]

What you guys need to do is come up with your own solutions. It's not that hard. How about "no promotions until you've paid your debt" for starters?

The entire point of the entire thing is that guilds (and religions are just a sub-type of guilds, really) are meant to be player-driven, not driven by game mechanics.

No promotions? Considering that in 99% of the cases, you'll get all the promotions you'll ever get within the first week of joining...

And that as a religious leader, it's not in your interest to spit on a good candidate because of his debt considering how rare people willing to invest themselves in religion are...

I don't think that's a very good approach.

Hell, considering that there's no drawback to not being in any faith at all, odds are if any leader tries to force the guys lower down to pay up, they can just ignore him or leave to religion.

Yea, I understand that you want it to be more of an RP thing, but players aren't medieval nobles. Without incentives to do so, most players will not roleplay their nobles as giving a damn about religion. And the few who do anyways are not enough to maintain a dynamic religious world in BM.

[Indirik]

What you guys need to do is come up with your own solutions. It's not that hard. How about "no promotions until you've paid your debt" for starters?

That requires promotions to be a moderately frequent event, and for there to be a reason for someone to want to be promoted. Some actual or perceived advantage to it. As it is, most guilds/religions operate with, effectively, three ranks: Aspirant, Full, and Elder. Yes, there may be dozens and dozens of ranks defined, but they are effectively meaningless, since the only thing you can adjust for each rank is, well, the allowed debt load. And the problem being addressed is that people aren't paying that debt to begin with.

There are simply no advantages to being slightly higher in rank than someone else unless you cross the aspirant/'full or full/elder line. (And even then, it's really only the full/elder line that counts.) You can't even threaten to demote someone with too much debt, as they can't be demoted unless the rank to which they will be demoted has at least as high of a debt limit as they already have. And if the debt limit is higher, they can just go deeper into debt. And if you kick them out, they lose all that debt load anyway, and you never collect.

What we need is some way to make debt mean something. So what can we do to make that happen? The easiest way I can think of is to either allow the elders to selectively disable certain features for deadbeats, or have the game do it automatically. The most basic thing that comes to mind is guild-based communications. Too much debt? No guild messaging for you! There are probably other things that could be disabled as well, with greater or lesser effects.

[Psyche]

How about honor?  I'm sure it wouldn't be the best thing for a character for others to know that they go around racking up debt without paying it.  Maybe have it so when an elder calls for global treasury to be filled it hits characters with debt too.  If the collection doesn't satisfy the debt, the character loses honor.  That, or make it so elders can select characters in debt and post a collection-  if the noble doesn't pay, he gets some honor taken away.  Elders could also cancel collections for members who are paying off the debt, but need more time to get the gold to a guildhouse.  Maybe a one week deadline?

[Chenier]

How about honor?  I'm sure it wouldn't be the best thing for a character for others to know that they go around racking up debt without paying it.  Maybe have it so when an elder calls for global treasury to be filled it hits characters with debt too.  If the collection doesn't satisfy the debt, the character loses honor.  That, or make it so elders can select characters in debt and post a collection-  if the noble doesn't pay, he gets some honor taken away.  Elders could also cancel collections for members who are paying off the debt, but need more time to get the gold to a guildhouse.  Maybe a one week deadline?

I'd rather a carrot than a stick solution. People don't really gain much from joining religions, after all, so if you are going to punish them for not doing something they don't care to do, they'll likely just not join any religion whatsoever. And it won't cost them a thing in 99% of cases.

[De-Legro]

I'd rather a carrot than a stick solution. People don't really gain much from joining religions, after all, so if you are going to punish them for not doing something they don't care to do, they'll likely just not join any religion whatsoever. And it won't cost them a thing in 99% of cases.

I guess the issue is though if the plan is for Religions to be mostly about RP, then you don't really want to be providing much of a carrot. Either people will want to be part of RP or they won't, a carrot is unlikely to improve the RP aspect.

[Tom]

I guess the issue is though if the plan is for Religions to be mostly about RP, then you don't really want to be providing much of a carrot. Either people will want to be part of RP or they won't, a carrot is unlikely to improve the RP aspect.

Exactly.

If you play the religious game for strategic reasons, then you're misunderstanding it. And I won't advance it into that direction. And that's also why it is optional and there are no drawbacks for not being in a religion.

[Chenier]

Exactly.

If you play the religious game for strategic reasons, then you're misunderstanding it. And I won't advance it into that direction. And that's also why it is optional and there are no drawbacks for not being in a religion.

While that's a coherent line of thought, I'd point out that if it's only meant to be RP anyways, why should people bother with game-handled religions? Most religions could have the same structure and advantages with a lot less costs by sticking with a purely RPed religion instead of one founded via game mechanics.

I, for one, stick with the old religions that have been up for a while, but I've completely given up on ever founding a new one unless things change. Been there, done that. Thousands of gold for temples, endless begging for funds, constant preaching which feels more like bureau work than anything, atrocious upkeeps, that only got worse now with the new taxes, to maintain medium to large religions, etc. All of that for...? Messaging? Sure, it's an advantage, but in most cases, all the followers are in a position that allows them to communicate with each other easily anyways. Religious maintenance tools? Takes months to convert well-populated regions, and with a single calm followers you typically end up losing a week's worth of converts for the gains equivalent to what a courtier would have had. Why bother? Offensive tools? Good luck converting enough followers to use it. And if you do, the damage is usually no greater than a looting attempt, may as well save your time and just come with a unit instead.

In some cases, it's worth the costs of founding a religion. In most of these, though, a single temple is all they'd ever need to satisfy their needs.

The approach of dumping all the religious duties on the priests is a problem, imo. On one hand, they are asked to provide all the RP to make the faith dynamic and alive. On the other hand, all of their tools concern *regions*, and not nobles. They feel like glorified courtiers. If you ask me, it's no wonder almost nobody wants to bother being a priest, and that a good chunk of those who do probably only do it for the hour/travel system more than anything.