OOC Clans

[Ramiel]

Because IC is allowed, some would say encourage, whereas OOC ones are forbidden and some would say cheating as they are explicitly against the rules.

[egamma]

Because IC is allowed, some would say encourage, whereas OOC ones are forbidden and some would say cheating as they are explicitly against the rules.

It's not in the Social Contract: http://battlemaster.org/socialcontract.php

As for the Rules and Policies, (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies I would say that the Old Guard should consider these:
Always give newcomers the benefit of the doubt.
Do not publicly accuse anyone of cheating, abuses or violations of this contract without proof or evidence.
Try to resolve issues with other players before reporting them to the Titans.

While the clan should be made aware of this one:
Don't use your clan to ruin other peoples' fun.

Basically, I see 3 rules that Crescent could possibly be in violation of, and only 1 rule that this clan could possibly be in violation of.

I'm not a Magistrate, and I'm not saying that 3 outweighs 1, but it's definitely something we should keep in mind.

[Revan]

You weren't a part of the OOC Clan, Malice and I respect you for that. However the bulk of your backing basically were all from the same group. If you recall the sudden surge in the increase of our nobles a few months back and the one-mindedness of them you would have been able to tell something was amiss already. It started way before you came to Oritolon, back when Antonine and Hvrek were still around. It only grew from there, albeit quietly, and you just stumbled across it. Put simply any candidate who ran against me at that point of time would have their vote, so long as its not me.

And its hard to get things done when nobody listened and followed. Punishments like fines garnered protests, and without punishments they simply kept to one side. We can't do bans because of our lack of nobles anyway. But I agree with your point that Oritolon needs a change in the fundamentals, but I still stand by my reasoning that this current crisis is led by a group of OOC friends.

I don't think you realise what a vicious, cold bastard Crescent appears to most people. Take Alexander, for example. Within a few weeks of arrival he was elected a lord unopposed because, frankly, Oritolon is an inactive realm. That was about the same time I kicked a hornets nest about a potential secession of Alowca. You made a number of heinous threats towards Pyran, Me and especially Alexander simply for his being a young noble you didn't trust. Meanwhile, I was leaning hard on him to stand firm with his fellow Alowcans and against his better judgement, he did. He's your enemy because you're so abrasive and hostile to new players/characters.

You can say the same about Orlen, who appears to be a returning player and who you essentially halted from being elected to lordship in Alowca by kicking up a fuss about this youngster getting elected. Later a member of the Simmons family turns up, an older player who has hitherto not been involved in the Colonies and you were laying into him for the actions of his family in other continents. Meanwhile as General you were being particularly controlling and stand-offish and managed to further alienate Alexander who stepped down as Marshal in protest.

Let me be clear, in my last weeks in power I was the one thing standing between you and protests and mass unrest. My vouching for Crescent halted the putative efforts to have you ejected as General and I was lobbied hard on changing that stance. It was only the younger nobles trust in me that was maintaining the fragile balance in Oritolon and when I unexpectedly paused, of course it was going to blow up.

The clan argument doesn't stand up. I mean sure, Alexander admitted he was playing with a friend but he came out with that publicly very early on and stated why they weren't both getting involved in things, to the extent that the other player actually left so as not to be abusive. You don't often find friends who play together publicly enquiring as to the best way they can play together without breaking any rules. As to my backing, you'd be surprised. I couldn't have gained election with just the support of Alowca or the newer players. I simply hit a nerve and had the support of long established members of the realm. Some of your very own council members, actually, and I largely maintained that broad coalition of support all the way til my pausing.

As for people knowing things about ancient history in Oritolon, that realm has so many skeletons in its closet it's ridiculous. From several different sources I've been regaled with accounts of the Colonial Brethren and their role in Oritolon, their history, present day activities. Meanwhile one of your enemies, I can assure you, has been quite loquacious in disseminating past history - particularly to do with Hvrek, Antonine and your role in that period - to your enemies in Oritolon. A man who was there. I know about all of that and the last time I had played seriously in the south of the Colonies pre-dated the introduction of religion to BattleMaster!

I don't know exactly what has happened since I have paused, but Crescent was already in a rocky position inside Oritolon and our young nobles had already been alienated. What's more, the old guard in Oritolon are silent and disengaged. They're automatons. The newer nobles have actually brought new life to Oritolon, spoken up and taken part. There's nothing wrong with that. But I really think everything you describe can be easily explained without reference to cliques and clans.

The old guard abdicated responsibility and influence with their silence. As Oritolon began to lose older nobles, like Ash etc. to inactivity, not to mention three lords being deleted for multi-ing, new blood was always going to come into power and influence and upset the status quo. As you say, Oritolon is reduced now to 14 nobles is it? That's her barest bones. As the foremost arrogant, abrasive defender of the old order, of course Crescent was going to be in a tight spot no matter what.

[Revan]

As to OOC cliques generally, to be fair I came to this game as part of an OOC clique. The subtext to the political machinations in Giblot 2005/6 is that in mid 2004 players from a game called Sorren came into Giblot and took it over as their personal stomping ground. Thanatos was elected without making a campaign. Gotchaz was appointed Duke of Giblot three days after emmigrating there (back when in a Republic, a Dukedom was worth 20 votes in PM elections). This is stuff I found out after I arrived in BattleMaster later on myself, as these guys ratcheted up recruiting in their quest to destroy Outer Tilog, essentially.

I was essentially part of that takeover for a while, but the problem with coming to a game like BattleMaster as part of a clique is that only one person can sit in a shiny Ducal seat or comfy throne. I wasn't part of the elite group who'd first come from Sorren either. Just a middling Sorren player who'd stumbled in later. Maybe if I'd been more closely attached I'd have acted differently, but in the end I was the one who ended up making common cause with those who'd been displaced by the clique and overcame them in rebellion, gloriously scotching Giblot/Lukon plans to TO Outer Tilog for about a whole RL year as well. It was beautiful, albeit enabled by recruiting an RL friend or two of my own after finding several months in a row that I'd always be a vote or two off unseating Thanatos and disrupting the clique. Though I still think that was a necessary evil for a greater good.

Of course, because of being such a duplicitous double-dealing fella in Giblot back then, the Duchy of Giblot had been promised to a member of my little clique but I handed it to a neutral after the rebellion so I became everyone's enemy and was hounded out of Giblot not too long after. The whole thing had been played out IC, at any rate. My character was evil in an OT-lite vein and a power-hungry fella and I was doing all sorts of ridiculous things in RP back then. Makes me squeamish to think of some of the things on the Giblot wiki from those days! Giblot was actually amazing for RP and such before the rebellion. The point, anyway, is that even though I came into the game as an awful rule breaker, the game won out in the end and I like to believe that happens to everybody.

When Khain and his clique were discovered and outed in Oritolon last year, I could sympathise because they came in with the ethos of their old game and were trying to impose things from the outside in an arbitrary manner. What they needed was a kicking, and they got it, and now afaik those people play alongside alot of ex-Alowcans in Minas Thalion and the rest of the Colonies folk who oppose Lukon/Oritolon generally. They seem to have learned something and they seem to be playing more in the spirit of the game as it's meant to be played now and that's fine, surely, even if they still all play together?

We've all been victims of cliques of course and it can be annoying. I remember the awkward moment in Bara'Khur when Vanimedle's lot started a rebellion against me that I only just scraped through. By the looks of a rogue OOC comment or two, they were all school kids playing together. They got a kicking but eventually returned to Bara'Khur, played more in the spirit of things and achieved their ends in a fair manner.

Yes, OOC cliques are annoying and yes, when they abuse power they should rightly be tackled one way or another but if they start playing in the spirit of the game and not impeding others fun/progress, what can you do? I do think what egamma is getting at is pertinent because then they just become an IC clique along the same lines as any other. Just like, say, in Carelia there is a strong Ashlantean community still even though the Ash Sea Islands has been dead for years because of a combination of surviving older characters and players who continue to enjoy each others company.

I think the cliques BattleMaster probably has more to worry about these days, especially given the reduced number of players, is an old boys network of older players who give out positions for no better reason than good past experiences with a player and what have you. I've had quite a few offers of this position or that position simply on joining a realm just on that basis, and I haven't always turned those offers down. OOC clans might stand out more, but it works both ways.

[De-Legro]

As to OOC cliques generally, to be fair I came to this game as part of an OOC clique. The subtext to the political machinations in Giblot 2005/6 is that in mid 2004 players from a game called Sorren came into Giblot and took it over as their personal stomping ground. Thanatos was elected without making a campaign. Gotchaz was appointed Duke of Giblot three days after emmigrating there (back when in a Republic, a Dukedom was worth 20 votes in PM elections). This is stuff I found out after I arrived in BattleMaster later on myself, as these guys ratcheted up recruiting in their quest to destroy Outer Tilog, essentially.

I was essentially part of that takeover for a while, but the problem with coming to a game like BattleMaster as part of a clique is that only one person can sit in a shiny Ducal seat or comfy throne. I wasn't part of the elite group who'd first come from Sorren either. Just a middling Sorren player who'd stumbled in later. Maybe if I'd been more closely attached I'd have acted differently, but in the end I was the one who ended up making common cause with those who'd been displaced by the clique and overcame them in rebellion, gloriously scotching Giblot/Lukon plans to TO Outer Tilog for about a whole RL year as well. It was beautiful, albeit enabled by recruiting an RL friend or two of my own after finding several months in a row that I'd always be a vote or two off unseating Thanatos and disrupting the clique. Though I still think that was a necessary evil for a greater good.

Of course, because of being such a duplicitous double-dealing fella in Giblot back then, the Duchy of Giblot had been promised to a member of my little clique but I handed it to a neutral after the rebellion so I became everyone's enemy and was hounded out of Giblot not too long after. The whole thing had been played out IC, at any rate. My character was evil in an OT-lite vein and a power-hungry fella and I was doing all sorts of ridiculous things in RP back then. Makes me squeamish to think of some of the things on the Giblot wiki from those days! Giblot was actually amazing for RP and such before the rebellion. The point, anyway, is that even though I came into the game as an awful rule breaker, the game won out in the end and I like to believe that happens to everybody.

When Khain and his clique were discovered and outed in Oritolon last year, I could sympathise because they came in with the ethos of their old game and were trying to impose things from the outside in an arbitrary manner. What they needed was a kicking, and they got it, and now afaik those people play alongside alot of ex-Alowcans in Minas Thalion and the rest of the Colonies folk who oppose Lukon/Oritolon generally. They seem to have learned something and they seem to be playing more in the spirit of the game as it's meant to be played now and that's fine, surely, even if they still all play together?

We've all been victims of cliques of course and it can be annoying. I remember the awkward moment in Bara'Khur when Vanimedle's lot started a rebellion against me that I only just scraped through. By the looks of a rogue OOC comment or two, they were all school kids playing together. They got a kicking but eventually returned to Bara'Khur, played more in the spirit of things and achieved their ends in a fair manner.

Yes, OOC cliques are annoying and yes, when they abuse power they should rightly be tackled one way or another but if they start playing in the spirit of the game and not impeding others fun/progress, what can you do? I do think what egamma is getting at is pertinent because then they just become an IC clique along the same lines as any other. Just like, say, in Carelia there is a strong Ashlantean community still even though the Ash Sea Islands has been dead for years because of a combination of surviving older characters and players who continue to enjoy each others company.

I think the cliques BattleMaster probably has more to worry about these days, especially given the reduced number of players, is an old boys network of older players who give out positions for no better reason than good past experiences with a player and what have you. I've had quite a few offers of this position or that position simply on joining a realm just on that basis, and I haven't always turned those offers down. OOC clans might stand out more, but it works both ways.

The main difference between a IC clan, or even an acceptable OOC clan is the nature of the characters. When people rail against OOC clans they are generally referring to the ones that might as well be multies. The characters in these groups are never going to disagree, or at least will only pretend to disagree in order to hide their actions. The chances of anyone breaking away from the group is almost 0. They exist to achieve a goal, and there will be no dissension between them in achieving it, like I said for all practical purposes they might as well be a single player with his multies.

A group that happen to know each other in RL who enjoy playing together in the same realm are non necessarily a true OOC. Even if they support each other on some matters, potentially important matters they are not a OOC clan. That is why it is so hard to really detect them.

[Ketchum]

@Revan/Malice.

You made good points there. I am Ash by the way.

Maybe Crescent plays his character like how Crescent character is meant to be played.
Think UT, Unreal Tournament. It is meant to be played.
He plays Crescent as a vicious bastard character to a lot of players characters.

I do not think some of us here understand how Republic system really work.
We have get ourselves used to other Government Systems where we do not tolerate dissenting views from other
characters.

When Crescent as Prime Minister asked me(Ash as Judge) to ban Duke Pyran of Alowca city for being straight forward
and Lord Malice of Irdalni, I am thinking no way on earth this is happening. When Spearhead agreed to this insane
proposal, I am thunder shocked looking at my Battlemaster screen.

I am a Judge and a Neutral one at that. Lord Malice proposal in the council about Alowca duchy seceding
somehow spark the dead and buried council under Prime Minister Crescent into life.
When most of the council members rejected the proposal, Crescent being a hard person he was, he kept pestering
in the form of "if you dont like it, leave the realm."

Oritolon is already a small realm with such big size of lands to maintain.
To be honest, Crescent lost the Prime Minister election to Malice because most of us here voted for Malice.
And you want Ash to ban Pyran because of his loud mouth and straight forward opinion in council?
He sparked the council to life, man.
Just because Crescent as PM gave so many bad marks to Duke Pyran but Pyran does not stepped down as you like,
this does not mean you need take your anger thus far.

Malice won the PM election because he had vision to move us forward.
Which impressed many of the people in the realm.

==========
@Crescent

Do not be a sore poor loser by blaming OOC clan as an excuse.
Khain and his OOC Utopia Clan already long gone from Oritolon.
They are now controlling Minas Thalion realm, so just let them play in the game as they should be and as the
Battlemaster is meant to be played.
Sure they got advantage of talking offline, outside the game.
But do they have good plan?
How can Khain got overthrown when he was Oritolon Prime Minister?
Because all of us united although we not in any clan outside the game.
It is simple really, no need to scratch your head and reply something you
dont understand with "Oh, he must be OOC Clan".
I can even show your OOC message where you send to everyone
after you see Spearhead, the old noble lost the Prime Minister election to Rhiannon, the new noble.
So who being emotional here after your favorite candidate lost the election?
Or when your character Crescent lost the election to Malice?

[Ketchum]

@Crescent

Things pretty much changed after Malice paused. Spearhead, the old noble lost the Prime Minister election
to Rhiannon, a new upcoming noble. Now here, why does you think we have OOC clan that push this new noble
to power? Let me tell you something, though I know you wont be able to differentiate this forum OOC obtained
information against IC obtained information.
Even your new noble Crimson Strika know something information that only Crescent should know. Even Crescent know something information that Cadelius Strika only should know.
Not even a RolePlay or introduction letter how your characters know all these although they are supposed to be different characters. Until some of us pointed out IG, only does you reply in angry tone.

Because most of us voted against Spearhead. We do not like the old way anymore, simply put.
When old noble Spearhead come to power as Prime Minister the previous time, he only acted as sweet to Lukon.
So that Lukon not attack Oritolon because of Khain the Mad Prime Minister and his clannie issue.
Should I continue more?
Spearhead is not really active, his quiet actions and did not move the realm forward.
We are being stuck in this circle of internal instability if we keep to the old way.

Sometime I really think Republic system does not suit Oritolon anymore.
Even Ash does not truly have support of everyone in the realm.
When Ash was Prime Minister, and he stepped down, changing the Republic Government System of Oritolon to
Monarchy, most of the characters do not agree with his action.
So there you have it, Oritolon refused to change itself.

Unless you being a sore loser after losing the Prime Minister election or does not have your favorite
candidate, the old noble Spearhead won the election, I suggest you keep this IG rather than OOC.
I have message that show you grumble OOC in the realm, which is not nice of me to show everyone here.

[Ketchum]

The main difference between a IC clan, or even an acceptable OOC clan is the nature of the characters. When people rail against OOC clans they are generally referring to the ones that might as well be multies. The characters in these groups are never going to disagree, or at least will only pretend to disagree in order to hide their actions. The chances of anyone breaking away from the group is almost 0. They exist to achieve a goal, and there will be no dissension between them in achieving it, like I said for all practical purposes they might as well be a single player with his multies.

A group that happen to know each other in RL who enjoy playing together in the same realm are non necessarily a true OOC. Even if they support each other on some matters, potentially important matters they are not a OOC clan. That is why it is so hard to really detect them.

Crescent worry too much about that last time Khain OOC Utopia clannie shadow. He thought there are many clannie people left behind in Oritolon. We understand his good intention. He sees them everywhere, even when he sleeps...

As a matter of fact, I have Ash keeping an eye on someone in the realm. He or she could be clannie. But anyway most likely is spy. Now we do have somebody acting behind enemy lines in enemy realm in Battlemaster, do we not?

[De-Legro]

You think nobles would just accept a Duke talking about leaving a realm? Even for a republic this could be construed as treason. The arguments about things like such a big realm with no few nobles are sort of valid, they can certainly be IC considerations, but to be frank most the time I see this brought up they are nothing but OOC concerns of the player, not the character.

Now the bit about things only certain of his characters should "know" You characters are family, not some isolated entity. I prefer not to have my characters share too much info, but if you have a "close" family or other reasons, it makes total sense for characters to share info. Especially true if the characters are playing on the same island or realm. It would make sense that one of my characters might warn his cousin and provide political background about a realm he is joining for instance.

"Spearhead is not really active, his quiet actions and did not move the realm forward."

Please be careful with statements like this, it would appear you are mixing activity and results. Punishing or affecting a character for lack of results is on thing, when you start talking about "activity" you start entering the region of Inalienable Rights.

[Ketchum]

You think nobles would just accept a Duke talking about leaving a realm? Even for a republic this could be construed as treason. The arguments about things like such a big realm with no few nobles are sort of valid, they can certainly be IC considerations, but to be frank most the time I see this brought up they are nothing but OOC concerns of the player, not the character.

Now the bit about things only certain of his characters should "know" You characters are family, not some isolated entity. I prefer not to have my characters share too much info, but if you have a "close" family or other reasons, it makes total sense for characters to share info. Especially true if the characters are playing on the same island or realm. It would make sense that one of my characters might warn his cousin and provide political background about a realm he is joining for instance.

"Spearhead is not really active, his quiet actions and did not move the realm forward."

Please be careful with statements like this, it would appear you are mixing activity and results. Punishing or affecting a character for lack of results is on thing, when you start talking about "activity" you start entering the region of Inalienable Rights.

No, it is not Duke talking about seceding. It is Lord Malice of Irdalni region. He stated in council if council not agree, he would tone down. But then Crescent being a hard ass Prime Minister that he was, keeping pushing him and many other lords.

Yes, understand. Will be careful. Many will agree he does not say anything in the realm, in other better word put, he does not have vision to move us forward as a realm. Which is why we do not vote for him, visionless leader.

[De-Legro]

No, it is not Duke talking about seceding. It is Lord Malice of Irdalni region. He stated in council if council not agree, he would tone down. But then Crescent being a hard ass Prime Minister that he was, keeping pushing him and many other lords.

Yes, understand. Will be careful. Many will agree he does not say anything in the realm, in other better word put, he does not have vision to move us forward as a realm. Which is why we do not vote for him, visionless leader.

Much better way of phrasing it. That is a failure as a ruler, not a failure as a player:)

So Malice was going to have his region swap allegiance to another realm, unless the council voted him down? Really that is still suspect sort of behaviour, his allegiance should be to his Duke at any rate. But many many realms would start to think the guy can't be trusted and maybe he should be removed.

[Revan]

Maybe Crescent plays his character like how Crescent character is meant to be played.
Think UT, Unreal Tournament. It is meant to be played.
He plays Crescent as a vicious bastard character to a lot of players characters.

I actually quite enjoyed the relationship between Malice and Crescent. Reminded me a bit of the love/hate relationship Malice Elder enjoyed with Moses in ASI. I think Crescent's a well played character, it's just he'd backed himself into a corner by the end.

You think nobles would just accept a Duke talking about leaving a realm? Even for a republic this could be construed as treason. The arguments about things like such a big realm with no few nobles are sort of valid, they can certainly be IC considerations, but to be frank most the time I see this brought up they are nothing but OOC concerns of the player, not the character.

Heh, we almost lost the city of Alowca due to lack of maintenance. Which seemed silly to me because we'd been at peace for months and months and had nothing going on. Plus I was trying to inject a bit of life into Oritolon by fostering Alowca's duchy identity a bit, so as a thoughtful Lord in Alowca I mooted a partition of the realm that would make both duchies stronger, seems as no-one in Oritolon Duchy seemed to care and the Duke and I had been left alone to sort things out.

Probably if Crescent had played it better, he could've had me thrown out. But his immediate reaction was over-reaction, which spurred my Duke to come out on my side and then turned into a thoroughly enjoyable and raucous argument. The reason I ended up running for Prime Minister is that I'd essentially committed the cardinal sin that had done for Khain and so many others before me, which was to essentially say our precious Republic was broken somehow.

Not going for Prime Minister would probably have meant being cast aside or hounded out as some sort of rebel alongside my Duke, so I went for broke and recast my sedition as a means of attempting to revive and awaken Oritolon from her dangerous slumber. Somehow, it worked :-P

[Valast]

HAHA Revan!  I always wondered if you were Revan from Sorren.  Ahhh how I loath that game.

I found this game back in um... 2003... Started playing and loved it!  So I started spreading the word over in Sorren to see if any of my friends there wanted to play.  Well...only a couple did.  But eventually we pressured a few more into trying it out... Although by then I was King of Lukon.  Some would come in and play with me in Lukon, some would come in and stand against me...like good ole Revan here or Spencer.

About half of the people who came over ended up enjoying the game to have played it for years now.  So the question then is...Am I the founder of a OOC BM clan?  Well...I suppose so.  We would meet in Yahoo chat and talk it up (before BM IRC) but we always ALWAYS invited everyone in the realm to come and hang out with us in those chats...and those chats became just a lot of fun without any game aspects at all.

We never tried to steal any realms via treachery... at least not unless it was IC deserved... but if we are tossing labels about, toss one this way too.

Oh and Revan...  Your welcome for me making Thanatos, Spencer, and Gotchaz spread the word.   ;D

[Zakilevo]

As long as OOC clans play along with people I don't see any problem. I mean it is only nature to invite friends to play a good game. Just shunning others in the realm because they are not sharing your group's view causes problems.

[De-Legro]

As long as OOC clans play along with people I don't see any problem. I mean it is only nature to invite friends to play a good game. Just shunning others in the realm because they are not sharing your group's view causes problems.

Exactly. We need a word other then OOC clan to describe the exclusive power gamming clans that we are referring to.