Secularism?

[Perth]

Yeah, well in order to survive we needed to become what we are now. If we played by true SMA we'd be dead long ago. We adapted and used our culture and environment to make our kingdom survive. Our kingdom is made of Thulsomans, Caerwynians and natural born Asylonians. There are very few kingdoms in Dwilight with such a mishmash of peoples and cultures from completely different places. Plus, Asylon was a small poor and isolated kingdom for much of its existence, we had to be more tolerant to keep our nobles and keep cohesion. So basically take the rigid-SMA and toss it out the window, this is Dwilight...

How can you so frequently go around boasting about being the "best role player ever" but not give a rat's ass about SMA?

[Glaumring the Fox]

Boasting? More like joking... You dont honestly take it seriously do you?  This is bm and this is dwilight not medieval europe, different histories take different methods of survival in a brutal environment.

[Perth]

Boasting? More like joking... You dont honestly take it seriously do you?  This is bm and this is dwilight not medieval europe, different histories take different methods of survival in a brutal environment.

Yes, of course I realize its somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But I genuinely thought you were someone who really enjoyed role playing, etc. I don't know, I've never played in a realm with you.

I just figured that someone who loves RP would care a little more about SMA, is all. *shrugs*

[De-Legro]

Boasting? More like joking... You dont honestly take it seriously do you?  This is bm and this is dwilight not medieval europe, different histories take different methods of survival in a brutal environment.

You are assuming that survival of a realm takes precedence over SMA. That might be your view, but I seriously doubt it is the view of those that are tasked to maintain the SMA. Given that the only real question is, is secularism allowable within SMA? It certainly isn't something that is covered by the wiki page, and as is true of many of these cases what some believe are obvious SMA violations others believe are not. Without a Titan ruling who can really say.

[Glaumring the Fox]

I do care about SMA, thats why I play on a continent with Daimons and Saxons, star worshippers, bloodmoon fruit eaters (tongue in cheek again)

I think of Asylon like ancient crusade era Isreal, a kind of melting pot of religions and things going on. I know we are not exactly like that era, thats impossible to replicate, but thats basically my idea for Asylon an Isreal type of area, where large amounts of religion and culture are in a nexus point bewteen east and west, north and south. Anyways, thats just my opinion of how I see Asylon a place that is between worlds.

I also lived in Taiwan for 14 years and experienced a lot of what I talking about in regards to a nation torn between so many different cultures and histories and religions existing on one small insignificant island.

These ideas are how I basically shape my RP and SMA on Dwilight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

[Vellos]

You are assuming that survival of a realm takes precedence over SMA. That might be your view, but I seriously doubt it is the view of those that are tasked to maintain the SMA. Given that the only real question is, is secularism allowable within SMA? It certainly isn't something that is covered by the wiki page, and as is true of many of these cases what some believe are obvious SMA violations others believe are not. Without a Titan ruling who can really say.

It seems to me to be very case-by-case.

I find the idea of Asylon as secular to be funny. They actively market themselves based on their religion; their previous queen included, in her reasons for signing a treaty with Terran, our positive outlook on Sanguis Astroism.

A secular state stays out of religious affairs. Asylon does not. It's last two rulers have been active members of the same religion, and at least its previous one was not shy about it at all, at least not with foreigners.

Asylon might be tolerant and pluralist... but secular it is not.

Terran, however, is not pluralist, not particularly tolerant, and not particularly secular. We allow two religions. Both have formal state support. Anything else we reserve the right to very, very tightly restrict. And the income of those religions from Terran each week is a statistically significant share of our tax revenues.

[De-Legro]

I do care about SMA, thats why I play on a continent with Daimons and Saxons, star worshippers, bloodmoon fruit eaters (tongue in cheek again)

I think of Asylon like ancient crusade era Isreal, a kind of melting pot of religions and things going on. I know we are not exactly like that era, thats impossible to replicate, but thats basically my idea for Asylon an Isreal type of area, where large amounts of religion and culture are in a nexus point bewteen east and west, north and south. Anyways, thats just my opinion of how I see Asylon a place that is between worlds.

I also lived in Taiwan for 14 years and experienced a lot of what I talking about in regards to a nation torn between so many different cultures and histories and religions existing on one small insignificant island.

These ideas are how I basically shape my RP and SMA on Dwilight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

Thus I refer you to the SMA definition

Non-European Realm/Religion Concepts
While these are acceptable on other islands, we are very, very sceptical about them on any island where we are looking for a serious medieval atmosphere. Some will be ok, a little bit of orient can spice things up, but the vast majority would only dilute and disturb the atmosphere. That goes especially for any asian or american concepts. Basically anything that the middle ages did not have much contact with. Again, there are other islands in BattleMaster where these ideas can be explored.
There is still an incredibly broad and deep variety of themes and cultures in Medieval Europe that you can draw inspiration from (Spaniards, Greeks, Baltics, Eastern European Cultures). There is quite enough variety without having to blend cultures that realistically never would've had much to do with one another. A little bit of research will turn up a lot of results.
This also extends to political concepts - if you insist on being the Socialist Knight you will probably be stripped of your title. Likewise, the Government System Wiki Page points out that Democracies are not like modern Democracies - they are more akin to the Parliaments of Medieval England than anything you would see today. So when you talk about "Democratic" ideals - be sure that you understand just what sort of Democracy you're touting.

You might find your ideas of basing a realm on crusade Isreal fall prey to the non-european clause, much like Chenier's rather detailed and excellent plans for a mesoamerica based realm did. The crusader states are obviously in a different league to that, being Medieval Europe certainty had contact with them. Whether that means they qualify as European Concept I don't know.

However you did miss an important fact. Crusader states were religion TOLERANT, not generally secular. They were controlled by Christian Lords and this greatly influenced the government.

[Perth]

You are assuming that survival of a realm takes precedence over SMA.

This is good point. Wouldn't it be equivalent to saying, "Well, my Noble needs to run around spouting about the glory of the Holy Squirrel's Doughnut Stache, because even if it isn't quite SMA, people think its funny thus it creates a good realm atmosphere which is essential to ensuring my small realm doesn't dwindle out of existence."

I do care about SMA, thats why I play on a continent with Daimons and Saxons, star worshippers, bloodmoon fruit eaters (tongue in cheek again)

I think of Asylon like ancient crusade era Isreal, a kind of melting pot of religions and things going on. I know we are not exactly like that era, thats impossible to replicate, but thats basically my idea for Asylon an Isreal type of area, where large amounts of religion and culture are in a nexus point bewteen east and west, north and south. Anyways, thats just my opinion of how I see Asylon a place that is between worlds.

I also lived in Taiwan for 14 years and experienced a lot of what I talking about in regards to a nation torn between so many different cultures and histories and religions existing on one small insignificant island.

These ideas are how I basically shape my RP and SMA on Dwilight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader_states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan

This is awesome and that is great. It's definitely a cool way to think of Asylon and an awesome IG cultural goal to strive for. I love it, keep going with it. I definitely have a positive outlook on Asylon (as a player) and am glad for what they do there for Dwilight.

However, we were discussing differences between just wanting to be religiously diverse and being secular. I don't think anyone would describe the Crusade Era Holy Land as "secular." It has more religious issues and conflicts tied to it than any almost any other place on earth. You could describe it as whole lot of things, I personally don't think secular would be one of them.

[Glaumring the Fox]

We have had 2 VE kings in our time. Also in international affairs we will play up certain aspects of our traditions, if we lean too far VE or SA we could have been dead crushed in the past.

I do not see Asylons acceptance of varied religions in its kingdoms as being anti-SMA, I see it as being MEDIEVAL with a DWILIGHT flavour added in. Its impossible to be full on SMA in Dwilight and I wouldn't want it to be that way anyways, this is a low-FANTASY- game with Daimons and monsters attacks and stuff like that , use your imagination, lets not copy the history books, lets use them as a guide and create our own unique and interesting world.

[Glaumring the Fox]

The Romans were in the middle-east for a long long time, I would say that the Israel area was probably very used to Europeans being there.

Anyways, I understand what you guys are saying now about secular etc, Asylon is not secular, it is merely a tolerant monarchy that because of historical reasons and a mixed population has not put as much weight on state religion. Even though it may lean ever which way depending on who is in power at the time, kind of like Scotland and England.

[De-Legro]

We have had 2 VE kings in our time. Also in international affairs we will play up certain aspects of our traditions, if we lean too far VE or SA we could have been dead crushed in the past.

I do not see Asylons acceptance of varied religions in its kingdoms as being anti-SMA, I see it as being MEDIEVAL with a DWILIGHT flavour added in. Its impossible to be full on SMA in Dwilight and I wouldn't want it to be that way anyways, this is a low-FANTASY- game with Daimons and monsters attacks and stuff like that , use your imagination, lets not copy the history books, lets use them as a guide and create our own unique and interesting world.

Again, you completely miss the difference between religious tolerance, which is by no means unique to Ayslon on Dwilight, and secularism. PeL also allows multiple (though not all) religions. However the King is also the prophet of one religion, and Government actions and polices will reflect this. To be secular the King would have to "remove" himself from religion when making Realm Policy, so as to ensure his religious beliefs and responsibilities due not influence his government ones.

Also how is it impossible to be FULLY SMA on Dwilight. The whole definition of SMA revolves around Dwilight and its low fantasy setting. It is impossible for Dwilight to be a medieval simulation or recreation, but that is not what SMA is. SMA by it's defintion is Medevial with Dwilight flavor. Otherwise we obviously would have Christianity dominating the island.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Again, you completely miss the difference between religious tolerance, which is by no means unique to Ayslon on Dwilight, and secularism. PeL also allows multiple (though not all) religions. However the King is also the prophet of one religion, and Government actions and polices will reflect this. To be secular the King would have to "remove" himself from religion when making Realm Policy, so as to ensure his religious beliefs and responsibilities due not influence his government ones.

Also how is it impossible to be FULLY SMA on Dwilight. The whole definition of SMA revolves around Dwilight and its low fantasy setting. It is impossible for Dwilight to be a medieval simulation or recreation, but that is not what SMA is. SMA by it's defintion is Medevial with Dwilight flavor. Otherwise we obviously would have Christianity dominating the island.

Understood. Am I still the best roleplayer and most awesome on Dwilight? 8)

[De-Legro]

Understood. Am I still the best roleplayer and most awesome on Dwilight? 8)

Just get someone to update the Ducal Accords so it doesn't claim Asylon is a secular nation :)

[Glaumring the Fox]

Whats the ducal accords?!??!?

[De-Legro]

Whats the ducal accords?!??!?

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Asylon/Ducal_Accords