Zuma/Daimons

[Sacha]

Just curious to see after all the Zuma talk in the other topic how many people like or dislike the Zuma/Daimon presence, or if they even know what they are.

Personally, I voted no, for reasons explained in the saltiness topic.

[Lefanis]

One of my best experiences in BM was when my character visted the Zuma. The Daimon characters there went the extra mile there to make some fantastic RPs, though my character was the only one there to appreciate it.

I voted yes, daimons in the west  made the colonisation of dwilight all the more interesting to me, and in my experience,  they have been forthcoming about the reason for their existence, and most willing to talk. Maybe things changed after they decided to have an ambassador.

[Telrunya]

I love the Zuma and they have been a major point of interest to me. My thanks to Zuma GM for his effort, it's not an easy task by far.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I voted I don't know anything about them lololol.

For anyone skeptical, the fact that I (well, Garret) exist should be an indication that it's possible to have a rewarding interaction(s) with the Zuma. I'm not a GM, I'm not part of the Development Team, I'm not in Tom's circle of friends. I'm pretty much some random dude who showed up and did stuff and stuff happened.

A lot of people, I think, happen to have their own little fantasies about how Dwilight should be. Nothing wrong with that, since ambitious humans tend to do that. I'm sure if we polled everyone who is or wants to be ruler on Dwilight you'll see just as many different responses of what their Dwilight would look like.

But people tend to forget to account for the Zuma in their fantasies. That's normal. We tend to filter out inconveniences. But that's also not what a capable ambitious human does. Those people can plan contingencies in case something doesn't work out, and they know how to deal with uncertainty. Obviously you want to do as few things blind as possible, but sometimes you have no choice and you must roll the dice. The more capable ambitious people have been the ones who planned well enough that the dice roll did not change much in the ultimate course of their plot.

Are you guys doing it? Gathering from the responses, those who are actually expressing their opinions on an uncertainty are not very capable people in terms of being ambitious characters. I reckon those who keep to themselves regarding the Zuma are going to be the ones who come out on top in the end.

[egamma]

I think the Zuma GM is doing a fine job. I think the Zuma have several roles, and we, as players, can pick.

For example, someone recently tried to use the Zuma to destroy Terran. --use of Zuma as a weapon
And Terran was accused of trying to unite other realms against the Zuma--use of Zuma as a uniting force or crusade excuse (Manifest path comes to mind)
And the Zuma are willing to buy food for good prices--use of Zuma as a source of income

Don't like the Zuma? Move to the east, coward.

[Vellos]

I will note that most people who like the Zuma thus far aren't playing in realms that actually have to deal with the Zuma, except only very sporadically, or through proxies. For those who actually have to deal with them, it's another story.

I voted I don't know anything about them lololol.

For anyone skeptical, the fact that I (well, Garret) exist should be an indication that it's possible to have a rewarding interaction(s) with the Zuma. I'm not a GM, I'm not part of the Development Team, I'm not in Tom's circle of friends. I'm pretty much some random dude who showed up and did stuff and stuff happened.

A lot of people, I think, happen to have their own little fantasies about how Dwilight should be. Nothing wrong with that, since ambitious humans tend to do that. I'm sure if we polled everyone who is or wants to be ruler on Dwilight you'll see just as many different responses of what their Dwilight would look like.

But people tend to forget to account for the Zuma in their fantasies. That's normal. We tend to filter out inconveniences. But that's also not what a capable ambitious human does. Those people can plan contingencies in case something doesn't work out, and they know how to deal with uncertainty. Obviously you want to do as few things blind as possible, but sometimes you have no choice and you must roll the dice. The more capable ambitious people have been the ones who planned well enough that the dice roll did not change much in the ultimate course of their plot.

Are you guys doing it? Gathering from the responses, those who are actually expressing their opinions on an uncertainty are not very capable people in terms of being ambitious characters. I reckon those who keep to themselves regarding the Zuma are going to be the ones who come out on top in the end.

You call it a fantasy, I call it trying to have an RPed plot. And, yes, I have accounted for the Zuma in things Hireshmont does. But the Zuma act without reference to anyone else's RP.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

When a bunch of ants do their stuff, and have amazing Nobel Prize winning roleplay literature, do you as a human give a crap when you decide you feel like having a chuckle and flooding their anthill?

[Anaris]

I will note that most people who like the Zuma thus far aren't playing in realms that actually have to deal with the Zuma, except only very sporadically, or through proxies. For those who actually have to deal with them, it's another story.

If I didn't have some strong reasons to be on the other side of the continent, I'd be happy to play near the Zuma.  Seems like the second-most-interesting part of Dwilight to me. (The first, of course, is Luria, but then I'm biased ;) )

You call it a fantasy, I call it trying to have an RPed plot. And, yes, I have accounted for the Zuma in things Hireshmont does. But the Zuma act without reference to anyone else's RP.

Um...so do other people.

I mean, seriously? You come in here, proclaim that you know all about what the Zuma are doing (and you hate it), and you're accusing them of acting without reference to your RP?

What unmitigated arrogance.

Did you ever stop to consider, Lyman, that maybe you're the one who's not acting with reference to their RP? They were there first, after all.

You have had so many opportunities to go to the Zuma and learn more about them firsthand, but no: you've got them pegged, and you know exactly what they're all about, and you don't want any part of it.

Heaven forbid you should actually consider what other people—regular players or GMs—have as their RP rather than deciding it for them.

(And to be honest, I'm really very surprised about this, because in general, you've always seemed to be pretty reasonable about that sort of thing. You never bitched OOC on the rare occasions when Delvin managed to spoil Hireshmont's plans. Is it really so hard to just think of them as another player—just one with different resources at their disposal?)

[Zuma GM]

But the Zuma act without reference to anyone else's RP.

Please stop stating this as fact. It is wrong. It is a lie.
Everything the Zuma do is in relation to interactions they have had with players.

[Vellos]

Please stop stating this as fact. It is wrong. It is a lie.
Everything the Zuma do is in relation to interactions they have had with players.

A very few, isolated players, without much influence with anyone anywhere.

Haktoo went to war, from all appearances, over one region being taken that nobody knew the Zuma claimed when identical things had been done in the past without Zuma responses, then opened up a second war because of a message from a commoner who nobody had heard of before the incident.

[LilWolf]

I don't like daimons being on the island. I've felt that way the first time I heard they were on the island.

Beluaterra is for them. Leave the rest of the islands to the players.

[Vellos]

I mean, seriously? You come in here, proclaim that you know all about what the Zuma are doing (and you hate it), and you're accusing them of acting without reference to your RP?

I loathe Gygaxian GMs/DMs. The job of a GM is not to force players through any means necessary to obey their plot plans.

Did you ever stop to consider, Lyman, that maybe you're the one who's not acting with reference to their RP? They were there first, after all.

In an open-ended game like BM, I personally don't think the GM's RP plans should be considered. They were there first--- by, like, 3 days or something because I was on vacation. And, even then... is it the same GM? I honestly don't know. If it's not, then I promise you: I was there first. But that's actually not relevant. "I was there first!" is a remarkably silly argument. And it's funny that I hear it repeated both ICly and OOCly.

You have had so many opportunities to go to the Zuma and learn more about them firsthand, but no: you've got them pegged, and you know exactly what they're all about, and you don't want any part of it.

And I have used those opportunities and learned a fairly small amount. And no, I don't have the Zuma pegged. I don't know what they're about. I just know that they have not yet exhibited any interesting behavior, and have actively and passively prevented most players in the area from doing the things those players found rewarding (personally, the Zuma have not interfered in that many of Hireshmont's plans for himself or Terran, though they may be starting to, but I've gotten many complaints from Terran's military types).

Heaven forbid you should actually consider what other people—regular players or GMs—have as their RP rather than deciding it for them.

I do consider what other people have as their RP. But I don't see GMs as having a right to an independent story. They should be facilitators for the players. Again, I have always understand BM (with an exception of Beluaterra during invasions) as a basically player-generated and open-ended game. And Dwilight was the apex of this, IMHO. If that is not the case; if, in fact, Dwilight actually has some plot we're all actually supposed to follow... I'll actually be very disappointed.

(And to be honest, I'm really very surprised about this, because in general, you've always seemed to be pretty reasonable about that sort of thing. You never bitched OOC on the rare occasions when Delvin managed to spoil Hireshmont's plans. Is it really so hard to just think of them as another player—just one with different resources at their disposal?)

Rare occasions? You were spoiler #1. And yes, I do take these things well. I reiterate: I'm not complaing that the Zuma GM has ruined Hireshmont's plans! He hasn't! Hireshmont's plans involve the Moot staying out of the war in Madina, having friendly relations with Astroism, and keeping the Lurias at a safe distance, and everybody having plenty of food. The Zuma have helped Hireshmont achieve all of these things. Hireshmont's plans were closest to failing the day before the Zuma attacked. Since then, they have handed him victory after victory. They're not doing it intentionally, of course. But, ultimately, I as a player don't want Hireshmont to "win," because his ideal means a few largish stable states with stable governments that never go to war and all get along. And the Zuma have basically rescued that vision from the jaws of defeat.

[Vellos]

A very few, isolated players, without much influence with anyone anywhere.

Haktoo went to war, from all appearances, over one region being taken that nobody knew the Zuma claimed when identical things had been done in the past without Zuma responses, then opened up a second war because of a message from a commoner who nobody had heard of before the incident.

Actually, I take that back.

The march north still has the chilling effect of fairly idle speech leading to drastic consequences; but Turin is not an isolated player with little influence.

I was primarily thinking of Terrence's various accusations and messages.

[vonGenf]

Haktoo went to war, from all appearances, over one region being taken that nobody knew the Zuma claimed when identical things had been done in the past without Zuma responses, then opened up a second war because of a message from a commoner who nobody had heard of before the incident.

They're still players, and their interaction is still meaningful. Not only rulers are allowed to play the game.

[egamma]

I will note that most people who like the Zuma thus far aren't playing in realms that actually have to deal with the Zuma, except only very sporadically, or through proxies. For those who actually have to deal with them, it's another story.

You call it a fantasy, I call it trying to have an RPed plot. And, yes, I have accounted for the Zuma in things Hireshmont does. But the Zuma act without reference to anyone else's RP.

And yet Gornak not only is a member of D'Hara, allied with Barca and Terran, but he has visited the Zuma and sold them 200 bushels of food. No, not a large amount, it was mostly a feasibility study. And as the player of Gornak, I think they are fun.

A very few, isolated players, without much influence with anyone anywhere.

Haktoo went to war, from all appearances, over one region being taken that nobody knew the Zuma claimed when identical things had been done in the past without Zuma responses, then opened up a second war because of a message from a commoner who nobody had heard of before the incident.

And yet, many of the players in D'Hara (those there the 18 months I have played, at least) were well aware that Barca needed to get permission from the Zuma before taking Eregon, and thought the Barcans stupid and reckless for not talking to Garret beforehand. Were they not aware that D'Hara needed permission to take Paisly? Barca is a Terran colony, and I know that Terran has had incidents as well. I think the Zuma responded to Eregon's takeover and corresponding military presence in a consistent manner.