Things that make you go Huh?

[roland.walters@abbott.com]

A nation is at war.  One of its infiltrators in his home city attacks an enemy nations infiltrator who has no troops and ends up captured and transported 6 regions away to the enemy jail.  And we wonder why people stop playing the game. 

[Anaris]

Because, y'know, that's totally the reason the majority of people who have left the game have done so. Getting captured as an infiltrator in a very rare situation.

What do you expect to happen? Infiltrator actions in your own realm are totally risk-free?

All imprisonments have always included instantaneous transportation. You'll get transported back to your own capital when you get out, so what's the problem?

[egamma]

All captures work the same way.

[Anaris]

I should also note that while I have seen people complain about this before, it's only been about 2-3 times over my entire 8 years in the game. And each time was right after they actually got their own infiltrator captured like this. So it's not like there's been any serious push to get it changed, or even any arguments against it beyond "OMGWTFBBQ THIS GAME SUX ROX!"

[roland.walters@abbott.com]

So we abandon all sense of realism in this game.  The lack of realism is one of the contributing reasons that we have trouble holding new players.   And I knew the risks involved.  This is just one of many example that I could cite of the lack of realism in the game.  I just wanted to open a discussion of the things that put people off in the game and this is one of the most egrious of the Huh moments that I could point out.  That it happens the way it is set up is both unrealistic and unreasonable.  If they were held by local forces, then that would make sense but also give a better chance of escape than a prison that is 6 regions away.

[Anaris]

So we abandon all sense of realism in this game.

The realism that this game has totally had all along. This game that has instant messaging, recruitment only possible in the capital, movement that only happens at the turn, movement that can't move more than a single region in a turn, no matter how short the distance...

Should I go on?

The lack of realism is one of the contributing reasons that we have trouble holding new players.

No, it's really not.

The big reasons we don't hold new players are the learning curve and the lack of a good set of newbie documentation.

It's almost invariably people who have been playing for a long time who complain about realism.

And I knew the risks involved.  This is just one of many example that I could cite of the lack of realism in the game.  I just wanted to open a discussion of the things that put people off in the game and this is one of the most egrious of the Huh moments that I could point out.  That it happens the way it is set up is both unrealistic and unreasonable.  If they were held by local forces, then that would make sense but also give a better chance of escape than a prison that is 6 regions away.

If you want to discuss things that are unrealistic, then make a thread that talks about how things are unrealistic. And preferably how to make them more realistic without making them either 1) not fun or 2) impossible to code.

Don't make a thread that says, "This thing that is unrealistic sucks and is why BattleMaster is a terrible game that is dying and no one wants to play it."

[Tom]

So we abandon all sense of realism in this game.

BM is not and never has aspired to be a simulation. It is a game with a realism setting just enough for suspension of disbelief.

[roland.walters@abbott.com]

A thread that was started to give players a chance to point out things that make a player go "Huh" and open a conversation on this topic has turned into flame the poster.  I shall exit this conversation and consider any further attempts to improve the game to be not worth my time.

[Anaris]

A thread that was started to give players a chance to point out things that make a player go "Huh" and open a conversation on this topic has turned into flame the poster.  I shall exit this conversation and consider any further attempts to improve the game to be not worth my time.

No, it was started as a flame.

You did not offer constructive criticism. You did not attempt to improve the game. All you did was make a nasty comment about a feature that has worked the same way for over 7 years, and had very little objection to it during that time.

If this is the sort of thing you think counts as attempts to improve the game, then I think we're better off without them.

If, on the other hand, you are genuinely interested in improving the game, and not just in saying which parts you dislike, then I'd be happy to start over with you in a new thread on a less adversarial footing.

[roland.walters@abbott.com]

I agree with your proposal.    My intent was to start a conversation about things that players find confusing/unrealistic about the game that cause them to leave.  This was to be a starting point for discussions on what could/should be addressed in a reasonable manner.  Note that the title said Thing that make you go Huh? not this game sucks.  I would not have played for as many years as I have if I thought it was that bad.  I am genuinely concerned by the decreasing size of the the player population.  Perhaps my example was poorly chosen but  I in no way intended it to flame either the game or the developers.  The tone of the response however is much less than diplomatic and certainly would put one off from trying to help.

[Indirik]

There are certain things that, for the sake of simplicity (of code, play, or comprehension), game play value, etc., we just handwave away. Insta-transport to and from prison is one of those things. Instant return from tournaments is another. There has to be a risk for any infil action you take. There's no free lunch here. It is less risky because the target doesn't lead troops. (Or so I assume, since he's in your capital...) But there is still a risk. It sounds like you just got unlucky. Or he's a better infil than you are.

[roland.walters@abbott.com]

On the issue of risk we agree.  This is one of the things that makes the game enjoyable.  This is not the issue of concern.  And I understand that there are limitations imposed by the code, playability issues, etc.  All games have these.  The amount that the player is required to suspend their sense of reality is normally related to the type of game, high fantasy will accept a much larger level than a simulation.  Battlemaster falls somewhere in between.  I can find ways to explain instant communication - Mirror stations throughout the realm, communication magic, smoke signals, etc.  But the game estabishes a limit to the distance that a character moves per turn yet violates that when moving captives.  That is why I go Huh at this.  Is it a game buster, no.  But it does seem to be a contradiction within the game.

[Indirik]

Yes, I can see how that could be a contradiction in behavior. But I don't think that saying "you are tied up in a dark hole in a basement somewhere" will really make all that much difference. Especially given the complexity of coding various prison behaviors based on all the situations that can lead to imprisonment. It's just one of those things that will have to be handwaved.

[Anaris]

But the game estabishes a limit to the distance that a character moves per turn yet violates that when moving captives.  That is why I go Huh at this.  Is it a game buster, no.  But it does seem to be a contradiction within the game.

It is a contradiction with a clear reason for it:

If you were to take 6 days moving to prison, it would be boring and not fun, and add nothing meaningful to the game.

Think about it. 6 days on the way there, 7 days sitting in prison, and then another 6 days back to the capital—or instantly transported to prison, 7 days sitting there, and then 1 turn back to your capital.

Which would you really prefer? Particularly since your actual prison options wouldn't be available until you got to prison.

[egamma]

It is a contradiction with a clear reason for it:

If you were to take 6 days moving to prison, it would be boring and not fun, and add nothing meaningful to the game.

Think about it. 6 days on the way there, 7 days sitting in prison, and then another 6 days back to the capital—or instantly transported to prison, 7 days sitting there, and then 1 turn back to your capital.

Which would you really prefer? Particularly since your actual prison options wouldn't be available until you got to prison.

Well, you could modify it, to where prisoners travel like priests (say, 10 miles per hour), and have a chance to escape while traveling, and only sit in prison for 4 days instead of 7. Getting captured near to the enemy capital could result in less time in prison, while getting captured far away from the enemy capital results in more chances for escape.

The 7 days in prison is purely a game-mechanic rule, and can be changed.