The Zuma

[Chenier]

Serious question: is the Moot ginning up some imaginary case against the Manifest Path?  Because I like to think that my character is well-informed about the happenings of tMP, and this Zuma stuff is nothing but rumor and shadow in Luria.  Hence Malus' very basic and uninformed questions about the issue. 

What I'm saying is, unless someone within tMP has been behaving badly, a Chénier is either creating a case for war out of thin air (okay) or Dominic is throwing an OOC tantrum and using the game to exact his revenge (not okay).  Is this an appropriate phrasing of the situation?

I won't comment on what's going on, but I'll have you know that Machiavel has tried for years to mend relations between D'Hara and Luria, and always hit a wall of blatant imperialism, "we are just waiting to be strong enough to march on you", "just give us a reason and we'll invade you", and "we'd should be the ones ruling the isles and not you". Even the friendliest was cold at best and unwilling to sign formal non-aggression agreements.

There's plenty of reasons to be wary of the Lurias. And of some others as well. OOC, I don't really care about any realms in any continent I play in right now. When I talk of Rio, it's mostly jousting, or arguing about things that I don't really care about really. I can disagree with others without thinking that they are a realm of bad players. I haven't had that feeling for quite a while... I had a certain dislike for Mesh for reasons I can't quite remember, and a deep hatred of Hetland for reasons I wish I didn't, but other than that, I've never had a really negative opinion of any realm in the game (though of some continents, sure). I've also never really had an overwhelmingly positive opinion of any realm, except for Republic of Fwuvoghor before it was ruined and political strife terminated. I guess I disliked that one too because I find mass-promoting advies as a political lever by having friends all share the same items with them to be cheap. But I don't have a negative opinion of the Lurias, though I do feel like Bedwyr is fueling the anti-D'Hara sentiment OOCly. That player's actions don't affect how I play my character, though.

So yea, Solari, if my dude does anything about the Lurias, or about a number of other realms really, I wouldn't go say that it's "out of thin air". Many realms are envious of the isles, many realms have harmed D'Hara in the past be it directly or indirectly, and many realms have issued one or more threatening statements over the years. Machiavel seeks overall peaceful relations, as war is bad for trade, but that doesn't mean that none have slighted him.

It's funny you should say that though, my advy is a member of tMP and the messages going around there make me think that Lurians definitely don't understand the Zuma.

That's because they clearly don't. Nor do they wish to. The Zuma aren'T all that far away, and they go on making a strong opinion on them without ever bothering to even come and see them for themselves. They just picked something on the other side of the continent that's easy for them to focus their hatred of, instead of on each other. Then it also makes it easy to justify, eventually, those that live next to it for not fighting them.

[Anaris]

That's because they clearly don't. Nor do they wish to. The Zuma aren'T all that far away, and they go on making a strong opinion on them without ever bothering to even come and see them for themselves. They just picked something on the other side of the continent that's easy for them to focus their hatred of, instead of on each other. Then it also makes it easy to justify, eventually, those that live next to it for not fighting them.

For someone who's so quick to accuse others of not understanding certain cultures (not without justice, in this case), you're pretty prone to the same problem yourself.

The Manifest Path didn't pick the Zuma to demonize just because it's convenient.  Heck, as I understand it, their view of the Zuma are pretty much a side effect of their view of all the nonhumans.

Think about how it looks to, oh, I don't know, anyone who's not personally met the Zuma (which is 95% of Dwilight).  There are Daimons over there around the volcano, and they have been known to occasionally come out and kill people for no apparent reason.

Is there more to the story? Sure, you know that (because you've had interactions with them) and I know that (because I chat with the Zuma GM from time to time).

But there's no way for most people on Dwilight—or, indeed, most players on Dwilight—to know that they're not just more Daimons like the ones on BT, who have, for reasons of their own, decided not to try taking over the continent, but might, for reasons of their own, change their minds at any time.

And one thing that a lot of religions agree on is that demons are bad.

[Solari]

That's because they clearly don't. Nor do they wish to. The Zuma aren'T all that far away, and they go on making a strong opinion on them without ever bothering to even come and see them for themselves. They just picked something on the other side of the continent that's easy for them to focus their hatred of, instead of on each other. Then it also makes it easy to justify, eventually, those that live next to it for not fighting them.

Thanks for the clarification.  In the spirit of giving, maybe I can explain the basis for any in-game argument tMP might make against the Zuma.  It's pretty simple:

• The Zuma are clearly inhuman.
• They don't seem very friendly to humans.
• Either they or others speaking on their behalf have claimed dominion or at least some influence over monsters and the undead.

If the motivating principle of your belief system is that monsters are the agents of a darkness that threatens to snuff out civilization, you can see where tMP might take issue with them.  Add to that the comments of characters suggesting that we should think of the Zuma as advanced "demi-gods" and now we're talking about meddling deities who are either indifferent to—or complicit in—the plight of humanity.  That would be strike two.  Human realms seeking to ally, assist, or otherwise harness those forces for their own use would not be looked upon favorably in this worldview.  It really is that simple.

In discussing the Zuma OOC, I would not be the first person to claim that they've been poorly or inconsistently developed.  Saying that other players or realms "don't care" isn't fair.  Historically, several attempts to interact with the Zuma have been made from different places on the continent.  People were discouraged, IC and OOC, from interacting with them.  If the Zuma's activity has picked up recently, it stands to reason that Barca and neighboring realms would be the beneficiaries of this knowledge. 

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Zuma are pretty human-like as far as I've seen. Ohh, you must be talking about daimons! Yeah, they're pretty inhuman.

You know, the interesting thing to note is that when we are talking about demons, we tend to mean the Judeo-Christian demon. In some other religions, there are in fact equivalent words for "demon", but some different connotations. And if you're really so inclined, go look it up yourself. I really can't do that (I do mean I really, really can't, because of my lack of knowledge and because any research I do now is really better used on...useful research...for, you know...real life.)

[Solari]

Zuma are pretty human-like as far as I've seen. Ohh, you must be talking about daimons! Yeah, they're pretty inhuman.

You know, the interesting thing to note is that when we are talking about demons, we tend to mean the Judeo-Christian demon. In some other religions, there are in fact equivalent words for "demon", but some different connotations. And if you're really so inclined, go look it up yourself. I really can't do that (I do mean I really, really can't, because of my lack of knowledge and because any research I do now is really better used on...useful research...for, you know...real life.)

I'm not sure I understand your comment. :-/  If it's human, it's okay.  If it ain't human, it ain't okay.  If it ain't human AND it trucks with abominations, it should be ignored or destroyed,  depending upon the severity of the threat.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

By that logic, you should destroy all your cavalry centers because horse = inhuman = not okay.

[Vaylon Kenadell]

I'm not sure I understand your comment. :-/  If it's human, it's okay.  If it ain't human, it ain't okay.  If it ain't human AND it trucks with abominations, it should be ignored or destroyed,  depending upon the severity of the threat.

This is far too simplistic a philosophy to use in dealing with the beings that live in the West.

[Anaris]

This is far too simplistic a philosophy to use in dealing with the beings that live in the West.

See, that's the kind of logic that's just not going to work when dealing with people who have never met them.

It's also never going to work when dealing with people whose religion tells them that anyone who has ever met a Daimon and not either killed it or died trying is evil.

(And yes, I know that's an oversimplification of tMP, but I'm using it to illustrate the point.)

[Vaylon Kenadell]

In all fairness, the word "daimon" carries a lot of baggage.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

If it makes anyone happier or unhappier, at some point there were Zuma Berserkers who were of the unit type "Monsters".

[Geronus]

This is far too simplistic a philosophy to use in dealing with the beings that live in the West.

That may be so, but that's meaningless in context. tMP believes what it believes based not on the Zuma, but on the BT invasions. What they believe is both rationally arrived at and cannot be proven wrong. Just because it doesn't fit the Zuma very well outwardly doesn't mean that it isn't a valid response to their existence.

[Shizzle]

That may be so, but that's meaningless in context. tMP believes what it believes based not on the Zuma, but on the BT invasions. What they believe is both rationally arrived at and cannot be proven wrong. Just because it doesn't fit the Zuma very well outwardly doesn't mean that it isn't a valid response to their existence.

Exactly. tMP can have all the wrong ideas about the Zuma they want. While there is a 'truth' to it OOCly, there is none in-game.

[Solari]

Exactly. tMP can have all the wrong ideas about the Zuma they want. While there is a 'truth' to it OOCly, there is none in-game.

It's still not "wrong", since we're talking about a cosmological frame of reference.  Geronus got it right, I think.  It is a belief system built from observation and deduction, and in the case of the Zuma (or other non-human but sentient beings), has no shortage of anecdotes from which to form a negative opinion. 

tMP's ideal stance would probably be for all humans to ignore the Zuma altogether.  Koli's said as much in-game.  Malus is the only elder that's made a direct inquiry with folks in the Moot, and only in an attempt to understand the nature of their interaction with the Zuma.  Nobody was preparing a crusade into Zumaland simply because they weren't human.

[Vellos]

Serious question: is the Moot ginning up some imaginary case against the Manifest Path?  Because I like to think that my character is well-informed about the happenings of tMP, and this Zuma stuff is nothing but rumor and shadow in Luria.  Hence Malus' very basic and uninformed questions about the issue. 

I will not answer this on the forum, and ask that no Moot players do either.

This is a completely IC question. And there is enough IC information that Malus could easily access by asking very simple questions to very obvious people to answer it for himself.

[Vellos]

And... if it seems like lots of shadow and rumor... that's great. Because the Moot's investigation is supposed to be very secret. That's the point.