Aurvandil's War Machine

[egamma]

I find it hard to have sympathy for either side...

True, but Aurvrandil doesn't need sympathy, or anything else.

[Solari]

Here is the horrible truth: Economics win wars, not heroics on the battlefield. This is even true in BattleMaster. No realm ever surrendered because the enemy was simply too awesome during that last battle. They surrendered because they could not field another army afterward.

Unsolicited advice: the sooner realms start giving duchies to players that enjoy the economic game, the sooner they can free up the battle-types to spend all of that surplus gold on ass whippings.  Reward players appropriately.  Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy.  Same goes for Bankers, Judges and any other position.  Give them out to the people who actually want to assume the responsibilities.  Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.

[Dante Silverfire]

Unsolicited advice: the sooner realms start giving duchies to players that enjoy the economic game, the sooner they can free up the battle-types to spend all of that surplus gold on ass whippings.  Reward players appropriately.  Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy.  Same goes for Bankers, Judges and any other position.  Give them out to the people who actually want to assume the responsibilities.  Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.

But, but, the less functional my realm is the more powerful I am...

[egamma]

But, but, the less functional my realm is the more powerful I am...

Is that you, C'Thonia?

[Vellos]

Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.

Welcome to the Middle Ages. Please enjoy your stay.

[De-Legro]

But, but, the less functional my realm is the more powerful I am...

Until a functional realm whoops your arse.

[Chenier]

Unsolicited advice: the sooner realms start giving duchies to players that enjoy the economic game, the sooner they can free up the battle-types to spend all of that surplus gold on ass whippings.  Reward players appropriately.  Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy.  Same goes for Bankers, Judges and any other position.  Give them out to the people who actually want to assume the responsibilities.  Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.

"Don't give them to the active people, give them to the people who are lazy and never do anything anyways!" That's what I read with "Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy."

As for giving them to people who want to actually assume the responsibilities, that's tricky... The amount people want a position is not always proportional to the amount they want to assume the position's responsibilities. Distinguishing these two can be tricky.

[Dante Silverfire]

Until a functional realm whoops your arse.

Positive and negative aspects to everything. Plus, I haven't really even lost that much power by leaving, in my recent instance.

"Don't give them to the active people, give them to the people who are lazy and never do anything anyways!" That's what I read with "Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy."

As for giving them to people who want to actually assume the responsibilities, that's tricky... The amount people want a position is not always proportional to the amount they want to assume the position's responsibilities. Distinguishing these two can be tricky.

Well I think the main thing is there are many approaches to handing out these positions. Its very hard to distinguish who will spend the most time fulfilling a position's responsibilities. However, it is fairly simple to distinguish those who are more active and dedicate more time to helping their realm and realm-mates. You can give positions to them as rewards and most of the time they'll step up and fulfill them. So I'd give a position to an active person over a non-active one any day. Especially if you want to reward them and gain an in-game friend/power piece for the future.

[Vellos]

Is nobody realizing how hilarious this discussion is?

Am I the only one laughing about the humor of suggesting a professionalized landed bureaucracy?

I mean, sure, it's more efficient. But really, how un-SMA can you get? Land and peasants exist to finance my horse, armor, and guards, damnit!

[De-Legro]

Is nobody realizing how hilarious this discussion is?

Am I the only one laughing about the humor of suggesting a professionalized landed bureaucracy?

I mean, sure, it's more efficient. But really, how un-SMA can you get? Land and peasants exist to finance my horse, armor, and guards, damnit!

In Solaria we just appoint the greedy. The theory is their greed will result in them maximizing the return on the land. Then it is just a matter of coming up with a way to part them from the gold. But no one is talking about PROFESSIONAL landed Bureaucracy. There were nobles that excelled in war, and their were nobles that excelled in managing land (or at least appointing stewards that were good at it and not interfering too much) Now since the game has a whole noble class dedicated to land management, it is not a stretch to assume that it is a VALID noble past time, so long as we aren't doing something disgusting like paying them a wage. Or do you want do declare Courtiers to be un-SMA and ban them from Terran?

[Vellos]

In Solaria we just appoint the greedy. The theory is their greed will result in them maximizing the return on the land. Then it is just a matter of coming up with a way to part them from the gold. But no one is talking about PROFESSIONAL landed Bureaucracy. There were nobles that excelled in war, and their were nobles that excelled in managing land (or at least appointing stewards that were good at it and not interfering too much) Now since the game has a whole noble class dedicated to land management, it is not a stretch to assume that it is a VALID noble past time, so long as we aren't doing something disgusting like paying them a wage. Or do you want do declare Courtiers to be un-SMA and ban them from Terran?

Absolutely not, I wasn't suggesting that. I was laughing at:

Give them out to the people who actually want to assume the responsibilities.  Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.

Which is hilarious (as are discussions stemming from it).... because positions being doled out as rewards.... is exactly what they actually were.

[De-Legro]

Absolutely not, I wasn't suggesting that. I was laughing at:

Which is hilarious (as are discussions stemming from it).... because positions being doled out as rewards.... is exactly what they actually were.

Yes and no. Certainly they were often handed out as rewards, though by no means was this 100% of the cases. There were also handed out as bribes, either to gain someones support or because the ruler couldn't risk insulting a certain faction. Even when handed out as rewards it is important to look at what they were rewarding. If a realm was to give them out to those that want to and have proven capable of performing the required duties, isn't that in itself rewarding their previous efforts for the realm? Just like medieval times the Ruler and Realms in BM are dependent on the region lords and Dukes performing well. While some rulers may have been foolish enough to hand out rich and important lands without though as to the continued maintenance of that land, certainly not every ruler was so stupid.

[Vellos]

Yes and no. Certainly they were often handed out as rewards, though by no means was this 100% of the cases. There were also handed out as bribes, either to gain someones support or because the ruler couldn't risk insulting a certain faction. Even when handed out as rewards it is important to look at what they were rewarding. If a realm was to give them out to those that want to and have proven capable of performing the required duties, isn't that in itself rewarding their previous efforts for the realm? Just like medieval times the Ruler and Realms in BM are dependent on the region lords and Dukes performing well. While some rulers may have been foolish enough to hand out rich and important lands without though as to the continued maintenance of that land, certainly not every ruler was so stupid.

The idea of efficient feudal management would be a novel one. I have never read anywhere an idea that dispensers of titles gave any particular thought to a potential lord's capabilities as a financial manager, labor organizer, or agricultural planner. It's generally more about his ability to command political and military support.

[De-Legro]

The idea of efficient feudal management would be a novel one. I have never read anywhere an idea that dispensers of titles gave any particular thought to a potential lord's capabilities as a financial manager, labor organizer, or agricultural planner. It's generally more about his ability to command political and military support.

Yes, but to provide military support, and in some cases political support one would require the funds from their land. No good being the best military leader if you can't also support a decent levy of knights and men at arms to actually lead. Thus to ensure that they were getting the best military support possible you had to consider the ability of the Lord to ensure the lands granted to them continued to produce the wealth required. This is exactly what Solari is advocating, military support is maximized when the regions, especially towns lands and cities are well looked after by their Lord.

[Vellos]

Yes, but to provide military support, and in some cases political support one would require the funds from their land. No good being the best military leader if you can't also support a decent levy of knights and men at arms to actually lead. Thus to ensure that they were getting the best military support possible you had to consider the ability of the Lord to ensure the lands granted to them continued to produce the wealth required. This is exactly what Solari is advocating, military support is maximized when the regions, especially towns lands and cities are well looked after by their Lord.

But seriously, do you think that, say, when the Franks sat around in recently conquered lands, they looked around and went, "Now, Joe over there is the best fighter, but not too great at counting sheep, so we'll give him a small estate, and just tell Bob, who is a good farmer and thus going to get a big plot of land, to give Joe some of his excess money." Really? I find that implausible.

Obviously, yeah, a catastrophically horrible land-manager might not be preferred (though I can think of plenty of cases where it wouldn't be crippling: I'm thinking of the Mayor of the Palace phenomenon in the late-Merovingian period particularly), but I think intentionally shifting your dukes out of combat roles...

Well, I dunno, there might be some kind of precedent, I feel like, somewhere in 1300's Italian states, maybe some German ones... but broadly it just seems very strange to me.