Reworking Prestige/Honour, etc.

[De-Legro]

As for points for giving an item away, I have used unique items as a portable bank.  Sell the item to a noble in need of gold for 0 gold, and buy it back from them at a higher price.   

I'm sorry, how do you not see this as abusing mechanics? The bank restriction is there for a reason, using other systems in rather odd ways to try and circumvent it should be raising big red flags.

[Sacha]

And there are much better ways to get gold to people away from banks. Guildhouses, temples and secret societies all have treasuries that can be drawn from by anyone in the region with access. I've used secret societies as forward banks of sorts, allowing people to stay in the field for weeks on end without seeing a bank.

[JPierreD]

I don't find it interesting.  And I choose not to.  Any Lord character always joins the faith of the majority of peasants, but that is where I now stop.  I tried to involve myself more a few times, shortly after I did the religions died.

So you tried to make something interesting out of some religions, and they failed, and now refuse to even join one, or give any other religion a shot?

[Charles]

I join religions still, they are just part of the game that I tried and did not interest me.
As for the items, if getting gold to someone by using an item is frowned uppon I will stop (I don't think I came up with the idea, so somewhere it is being used by others).  Guilds etc. only work to get gold to people if there is a guild.  In newly conquered regions with very low production no guilds and 80+ hours away from a bank (think Desert of Silhouettes in D'Hara), the item exchange seems like a perfect option.

[JPierreD]

Try other religions, I'd say, if yours suck.

On using items, it's not a risk-free method, so it's not so bad in my opinion.

[Longmane]

Perhaps, then, having Largesse to be mostly about religion is a way to encourage better religions. If people are going to be donating to some religions anyway, you need to make sure that your religion is the more interesting one.

I'm thinking that such actions as donating to temples/religions should gain a char points towards both Largesse AND something tied to piety, perhaps honor, as that way your not only able still get Largesse through other means, but also something else to hopefully help encourage players make their chars more interested in religion.   

[Longmane]

There is also a problem with having family investments effect Largesse. Essentially it is family gold that might be generated by wealthy characters on other continents. If you are a poor knight, and if gaining largesse is tied to income (as I think it should), family investments may screw this balance. In my opinion it would be much better to tie the investments to prestige.

My own preference would be that you can only perform acts of Largesse with gold actually on hand, thereby both dealing with the possible unfair advantage of those with more wealthy families, but also meaning it would sometimes take a while for a char get the gold together to perform one.

[Duvaille]

Tom,

You said you would prefer to see actions related to Largesse to only deal with that, and not have actions that influence many different stats at the time. This makes for an easier to grasp and more intuitive gameplay. Does this also mean that the stats should not influence the same things? Right now, I believe, you have suggested that both combat experience and Largesse would influence the number of troops one can recruit. Is this an exception or a rule?

You originally said that the stats are to balance each other. If you can gain some goodie from both stat A and B, it gives the characters more options to gain the same thing (and put together, an amplified effect). But it does make it a little bit more fuzzy. So which of them do you prefer? Or have I misunderstood something?

It's important to know this distinction in order to make suggestions that are in line with what you want for the stats to accomplish.

[OFaolain]

Despite my inexperience with this game relative to all of you, I'd like to offer some suggestions, if I could.  Hopefully you like at least some of what I wrote here, and that at least some of it is new.  Each stat could be represented by a blue/red bar that has a total fixed width with a small icon on either side of it.

Reputation (icons: +/-) - The "player-driven" stat; much like medals, each player can rate the "reputation" of the character.  Whether he upholds his bargains, follows his superiors and values his subordinates, or uses people as far as he can and kicks them to the curb.  This is a roleplay statistic without mechanical effects.  The blue is "positive" reputation, and the red is "negative" reputation; each bar would be sized to reflect the % of positive and negative votes.  So, someone with 10 votes positive and 10 negative would have a bar that is half red and half blue, but someone with 10 positive and 5 negative votes would have a bar that is two-thirds blue and one-third red.

Prowess (icons: shield/shield with crossed swords in front)- The "military stat" which increases as your character gains combat experience, this represents a noble's ability to command a unit effectively, and command the loyalty of his men.  More prowess is always good, and could be on a scale of 1 to 100, filling blue as you gain prowess.  With higher prowess (blue bar), your men can fight more effectively (CS boost, or cohesion boost?), are less likely to break in battle and you can lead more men due to your reputation as a good commander.  Heroes and Cavaliers could receive a bonus to prowess that replaces their class ability to lead more men (and maybe have a minimum prowess requirement, similar to their current minimum honor requirement?).

Largesse (closed coin purse/open treasure chest) - This stat shows how generous your character is with his or her personal wealth.  A double-edged sword statistic, both high and low largesse will give you bonuses mitigated by small penalties.  Largesse can be raised by depositing gold at a temple, buying drinks at tournaments or for your men when morale is high; it will decrease over time, requiring an expenditure of gold to maintain high largesse (as well it should).  As your character's largesse increases (blue bar), the size of unit you can command will increase, as will the effectiveness of your civil and police work and your men will wait longer for you to pay them, trusting that you *will* pay them eventually; however, a character who is generous may also be taken advantage of, and you will spend more money on unit upkeep.  As your character's largesse falls (red bar), the size of unit you command will decrease and your men will grumble sooner if left unpaid; however, you will pay less money in unit upkeep, and your stingy ways make construction in your region or estate cheaper.

Brutality (closed fist/open hand) - This stat shows how much you are loved or feared by the peasantry and is another double-edged sword stat.  As your character's brutality increases (red bar), the effectiveness of your police work, looting and hostile takeover actions is increased, and the control in your character's region (smaller cross-duchy effect for Dukes, and cross-realm effect for Kings) is increased; however, the morale in your character's region (and duchy for Dukes, and realms for Kings) is decreased and your friendly takeover actions and civil work are less effective; further, enemy friendly takeover actions are more effective as they are seen as liberators from your cruel oppression.  As brutality decreases (blue bar), the effectiveness of your civil work and friendly takeover actions is increased, and the morale in your character's region (/duchy/realm) is increased; however, the control in your character's region (/duchy/realm) is decreased and your hostile takeover actions are less effective; further, enemy hostile takeover actions are more effective, as the peasants question how all your kindness is helping them now.  The stat increases by taking actions that it boosts (only police work that boosts it is hanging rebels) and is lowered by taking actions that it hurts.

Prestige (helmet/crown) - This stat shows how much work you do for your realm and increases any time you take an action that is reported to someone within your realm.  This includes civil work, preaching, bureaucratic work, police work, sharing new scout reports with your army, holding court and participating in battles.  It affects everything you do in a positive way by making your actions a little bit more effective and increasing the size of unit you can command, while decreasing the amount you have to pay slightly simply because the peasants consider it a privilege to bask in your greatness.

[Tom]

That's a pretty cool summary right there. If someone from the dev team can put it on the Trac, that would be splendid.

[Longmane]

OFaolain,

That not only seems encompass everything wanted/needed but also in such a easily understood way. 

[Duvaille]

OFaolain,

Yes, it is good to see it all put together from the fragments. I like especially what you did with Prestige. In your model it is kind of a relative to Largesse, but where Largesse deals with donating gold, Prestige deals with giving your time for the greater good of the realm (among other things). In a way it could be seen as an "activity meter" showing not how much time you spend in front of the screen but how you use the hours of your character for the realm.

The bit about getting prestige for sharing scout reports with the army is a splendid idea. Even if some would choose to farm it for worthless reports. It all consumes precious hours and all the reports are useful to the commanders in one way or another (in what is NOT there as much as what is there). You might want to consider limiting prestige bonuses to reports of regions not within the realm of the scouter.

[Velax]

I think every time your name is reported outside the realm, you should gain prestige also. Such as marshals, sponsors, unique item wielders and those who wound or capture other nobles in "Huge battle reports".

[Foundation]

That's a pretty cool summary right there. If someone from the dev team can put it on the Trac, that would be splendid.

Added under "NewStats".