Clan in Fontan and Aurvandil

[Blint]

It seems from the different posts that are on this thread that a few people have different ideas as to what "clanning" is, could someone perhaps a magistrate or Tom or someone define Clan so we are all clear on that.

Secondly how would posting a link to our family pages show that we are not "in a clan" as it was put?

[Tom]

GENERIC WARNING TO EVERYONE

Before you post, read the board rules.

If you have already posted, go back, read the board rules, and then EDIT YOUR POSTS TO MATCH.

I will not allow this topic to degenerate into an exchange of the same rehashed arguments, especially not the ones that have nothing whatsoever to do with the case. Nobody gives a damn why or how the economy or military is efficient. Nobody gives a damn if someone is whining for losing a battle or a war. Take the flamefest elsewhere.


Moderators: Please moderate aggressively. Anything not contributing to the case should be deleted.

[Tom]

It seems from the different posts that are on this thread that a few people have different ideas as to what "clanning" is, could someone perhaps a magistrate or Tom or someone define Clan so we are all clear on that.

I already made that statement in the Fontan topic.

[Tom]

the fact that she won is not my complaint, it how it was done.

Is that the sort of thing that the magistrates are looking for?

That is exactly the point.

I personally couldn't care less about which realm wins or loses what war. Realms constantly win or lose and you don't see me taking an interest. Realms get destroyed and disappear and I don't lift a finger. More often than not, when I look at the realm list of some continent I don't recognize some of the realms there and don't find some that I still remember.

In this case, it's not that Fontan is winning or losing or whatever. It's how it's done that worries me. More importantly, it is the how that is the subject of this case, nothing else.

[Vellos]

So then what you are looking for is examples of how it is effecting the game as a whole.  more specifically how it is effecting Fontan and its politics and game play?

Basically, yes. There is no debate about economic or military efficiency, as Tom has stated. Those issues are "givens" for this case. The debate is if clans are inhibiting gameplay.

Regarding the cases you mentioned, I have a question: so a person was elected without debate over a person who put in some public/private effort. Can you think of no other reason that person was favored? Any differences in military service, time in realm, or whatever? I'm not saying I disbelieve you or not; just trying to get clarity on what you are stating.

Regarding the general's use of the military council and orders; are you saying that some nobles are receiving orders that other nobles (presumably in the same armies?) are not? And, furthermore, how are you claiming those orders are passed? Are they going IC, OOC, or what?

Because conflicts between generals, marshals, sponsors, and judges are normal and interesting. What you need to demonstrate is that this isn't an RP conflict between IG political powers, but is primarily a conflict stemming from an OOC clan attempting to force other players to play its way, or to exclude other players from its turf, or some similar harm.

[Tom]

I would like to note that the Magistrates are more-or-less bound to treat any claims that the economy of Aurvandil is naturally managed as false,

Specifically not the economy as in how much the regions make, but the tax collection and distribution. As someone mentioned, gold gets sent to people who need it. In many cases, it gets send without a request for gold. So how do the people who distribute it around know who needs how much? We haven't found an answer to that question.

[Vellos]

Specifically not the economy as in how much the regions make, but the tax collection and distribution. As someone mentioned, gold gets sent to people who need it. In many cases, it gets send without a request for gold. So how do the people who distribute it around know who needs how much? We haven't found an answer to that question.

Right, yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry for unclarity.

Again, to me, it seems like this doesn't need to be debated. Any claims to the contrary against this must be ignored; if we don't trust a Dev investigation, then the whole thing is an exercise in futility. So given these facts: what do Aurvandil players have to say about it? What do Fontan players have to say about it?

[Ketchum]

Specifically not the economy as in how much the regions make, but the tax collection and distribution. As someone mentioned, gold gets sent to people who need it. In many cases, it gets send without a request for gold. So how do the people who distribute it around know who needs how much? We haven't found an answer to that question.

Letter from Yvonne Peugeot   (16 days, 12 hours ago)
Lord Ketchum,

I do apologize for taking your time, but I was wondering if I may take out a loan from the treasury. My unit has become quite experienced and I am now unable to pay for their services. My intent is to transfer them into militia as soon as I can pay them off to raise a another unit.

Thank you for hearing my request,

-Dame Yvonne

Yvonne Peugeot (Dame of Negev)
-----

Request from Brock Ketchum   (16 days, 12 hours ago)
(Personal message to Yvonne Peugeot)
Dame Yvonne,

May I get the details of your men and how much their pay?

Thanks.

Brock Ketchum
Minister of Finance of Fontan
-----
Report from Yvonne Peugeot   (16 days, 2 hours ago)
Many thanks,

My unit requires approximately 40 gold every three days and I owe them around 30 in back wages. In total, I will need 56 gold.

Yvonne Peugeot (Dame of Negev)

-----
Report from Brock Ketchum   (15 days, 13 hours ago)
(Personal message to Yvonne Peugeot)
You have successfully transferred 50 bonds to Yvonne.

Tax is coming tomorrow.

Brock Ketchum
Minister of Finance of Fontan

[Ketchum]

Specifically not the economy as in how much the regions make, but the tax collection and distribution. As someone mentioned, gold gets sent to people who need it. In many cases, it gets send without a request for gold. So how do the people who distribute it around know who needs how much? We haven't found an answer to that question.

Tom, thank you for your question. This question has been a troubling one. As my Banker character can attest to, it is sometime hard to know who really need the gold and how much. My character Brock tries to err on side of caution, by asking about their men pay, check their characters command how many men, and the rest depend on good will, trust between characters.

My messages above is one such IC interaction that perhaps we all are looking at, if we are to avoid favoritism and clannie thing. Is that what we are looking for? ::)

[Kellaine]

Basically, yes. There is no debate about economic or military efficiency, as Tom has stated. Those issues are "givens" for this case. The debate is if clans are inhibiting gameplay.

Regarding the cases you mentioned, I have a question: so a person was elected without debate over a person who put in some public/private effort. Can you think of no other reason that person was favored? Any differences in military service, time in realm, or whatever? I'm not saying I disbelieve you or not; just trying to get clarity on what you are stating.

Military service could be an issue as Sasha has spent the majority of her time as a courtier and a region Lord. and as best I can tell Sangah has been active in the military though has been unrearkable and silent since she arrived in Fontan. she is not new to fontan and could have won the election on her own merits. so that may not have been the best example after reviewing her time in realm.

Regarding the general's use of the military council and orders; are you saying that some nobles are receiving orders that other nobles (presumably in the same armies?) are not? And, furthermore, how are you claiming those orders are passed? Are they going IC, OOC, or what?
It is not known if they received seperate orders via in game or ooc. All that is known is they do not follow the orders of the army they are in and the order given to the armies have never mentioned that some will have special orders. so I am unable to determine how they received orders or if they did at all.

Because conflicts between generals, marshals, sponsors, and judges are normal and interesting. What you need to demonstrate is that this isn't an RP conflict between IG political powers, but is primarily a conflict stemming from an OOC clan attempting to force other players to play its way, or to exclude other players from its turf, or some similar harm.

I agree that simple conflicts are interesting to watch play out.  But to circumvent the chain of command over all is wrong.  There is a reason that we have Marshals and their authority is effectively gone.  Fontan is losing a sense of itself under these condition.

What I notice is that the Clanners seem to follow order unto themselves alone.  I could of course be wrong in my assessment. I am far from perfect.  Of course I want Fontan to will this war, that goes without saying but that is not my concern here. Losing half the clanners right now would seriously harm Fontans military. I just want Fontan to go back to what it was. A democracy run by the Fontan Assembly. right now It feels like a dictatorship in the guise of democracy. I have been in Fontan for almost 7 years between my current account and the one I had previously.  I hope I have answered your questions properly and as fully as I can at this point.

Mod Note: Removed excessive bold tags.

[Blint]

In this case, it's not that Fontan is winning or losing or whatever. It's how it's done that worries me. More importantly, it is the how that is the subject of this case, nothing else.

It seems to me that the argument only became prevalent after Aurvandil began to win its war. As you have stated it matters not that we are winning or losing the war. It matters how we got to that state. Aurvandil got to that state by being proactive, giving orders 2 or 3 turns in advance to ensure that everyone was where they were supposed to be when they needed to be there. As it has been previously said, the few times we did not do that we lost the conflicts we were engaged in.

It matters not that we managed to raise a rather large mobile CS force quickly but how we did that. I for one am unsure of how exactly we did that. The orders were given to recruit as much as possible and if you needed gold to maintain a unit over 40 men or so you should ask for it as there are plenty of players willing to help if you ask for it.

That seems to be a big point in Battlemaster to me, If you need help with something ask and 99.9% of the time someone has the answer and the other 0.1% of the time someone knows where to get the answer and can point you in the right direction. You as a player need only take the initiative and ask for the help you require. I have done this on several occasions in different realms on different continents requesting help on a whole range of topics. I was never chastised for asking for help but rather applauded in some cases for admitting "I do not know how to do xyz. Could someone please help me to do so." etc etc.

I doubt anyone in Aurvandil is against sharing How they went about contributing to the realm. That is after all what this thread is about

[Kellaine]

It seems to me that the argument only became prevalent after Aurvandil began to win its war. As you have stated it matters not that we are winning or losing the war. It matters how we got to that state. Aurvandil got to that state by being proactive, giving orders 2 or 3 turns in advance to ensure that everyone was where they were supposed to be when they needed to be there. As it has been previously said, the few times we did not do that we lost the conflicts we were engaged in.

It matters not that we managed to raise a rather large mobile CS force quickly but how we did that. I for one am unsure of how exactly we did that. The orders were given to recruit as much as possible and if you needed gold to maintain a unit over 40 men or so you should ask for it as there are plenty of players willing to help if you ask for it.

That seems to be a big point in Battlemaster to me, If you need help with something ask and 99.9% of the time someone has the answer and the other 0.1% of the time someone knows where to get the answer and can point you in the right direction. You as a player need only take the initiative and ask for the help you require. I have done this on several occasions in different realms on different continents requesting help on a whole range of topics. I was never chastised for asking for help but rather applauded in some cases for admitting "I do not know how to do xyz. Could someone please help me to do so." etc etc.

I doubt anyone in Aurvandil is against sharing How they went about contributing to the realm. That is after all what this thread is about

What about in Fontan where orders are not given until the last minute to either the Mashals or the realm.

[Blint]

What about in Fontan where orders are not given until the last minute to either the Mashals or the realm.

I cannot speak for Fontan, as I do not have a character in Fontan.

[Kellaine]

I cannot speak for Fontan, as I do not have a character in Fontan.

Fair enough thanks for replying.

[Fury]

I would like to challenge, however, all these players coming out of the woodwork to say how awesome Fontan and Aurvandil are, how there's no clan, how people are only complaining because they're losing [...] to link to their family pages in their profile. So we can get an idea of just how "objective" some of this support is.

I would like to see this or at least identify your character that we might know where you're coming from (including any potential bias).

Investigations in Aurvandil and, to a lesser extend in Fontan, revealed that the military as well as the economy of those realms is working like clockwork with almost no in-game communication.

In the interest of full disclosure, we also found that the alleged clan is not acting aggressively exclusive. We have seen characters join the realm and be welcome. However, to the best of our knowledge, they are not integrated into the alledged clan and receive none of the suspected OOG communications.

This is the crux - an investigation having been made. A lack of IG communication points to clan activity. Unless, there is another explanation? A smattering of IG msgs to other players is not proof that there isn't nor does a slow trickling in of characters from elsewhere.

The timing of the complaints also does not matter. Investigations will naturally follow complaints.