Religion is missing something?

[JPierreD]

Trying to convert a noble, I was replied that it was the tradition in his family to only join religions if they were becoming priests. A.k.a. "I only join a religion when the game mechanics demand it".

Sigh

[Indirik]

Easiest change would be a system to causes increasing levels of unrest, the longer the region lord fails to join the dominant religion of the people, or at least A religion.

There are IG penalties. YOu may be able to argue, though, that they are not enough.

No more atheist/agnostic region lords.

There are no atheists. If you think your character is an atheist, then feel free to let Tom know, and he will disabuse your character of his misconceptions.

[Indirik]

Lords should be dictating religion to their serfs, not the other way around.

Call in a priest, and convert them.

If you have this, new religions will never be able to grow because any lord who opts out of the stale old national religion will have his region revolt on him.

It's not that bad... Unless your new religion is declared Evil. And perhaps you get auto da fe'd.

But still, what do you expect? That the lord of a region of 5,000 superstitious peasants can leave his faith, declare that they should all follow some other new faith, and expect them to all just instantly fervently believe the new faith, without any grumbling or resentment?

And sometimes, there is a reason for not being part of an IG religion. It's not always because of atheism/agnosticism.

This is true.

[Chenier]

Call in a priest, and convert them.

How many priests do we have per continent? And how quickly can a priest convert a region that is 100% whatever? And if that religion views the other as evil? This is not a reasonable solution. If you want religion to matter, then you need to make sure that religion has a LOT more actors involved in promoting it. Leaving it all in the hands of priests, when people willing to play them are so scarce, just ain't gonna work.

It's not that bad... Unless your new religion is declared Evil. And perhaps you get auto da fe'd.

Right now? No. However, he was suggesting to make it precisely that bad. I was commenting his suggestion, not the status quo.

But still, what do you expect? That the lord of a region of 5,000 superstitious peasants can leave his faith, declare that they should all follow some other new faith, and expect them to all just instantly fervently believe the new faith, without any grumbling or resentment?

Violent persecutions like the inquisitions came from the top down. Priests already have a ton of options that give established religions incredible advantage over smaller and newer ones, they don't need a passive new-religion killer bonus as well. Peasant revolts should be limited to player-instigated ones, otherwise you are just favoring the bland boring religions that are the reason people don't care for religions in the first place.

[Indirik]

How many priests do we have per continent? And how quickly can a priest convert a region that is 100% whatever? And if that religion views the other as evil? This is not a reasonable solution. If you want religion to matter, then you need to make sure that religion has a LOT more actors involved in promoting it. Leaving it all in the hands of priests, when people willing to play them are so scarce, just ain't gonna work.

IMO, if people stop playing religions as boring, then people will want to be priests. But the majority of religions *want* to be boring. If people stop with the boring religion garbage, and this nonsensical "separation of church and state", then we'll have better religion overall.

But this does require something that few people are willing to do, apparently: play a character committed to a religion, and willing to follow along with what the leaders of the religion say to do.

[JPierreD]

But this does require something that few people are willing to do, apparently: play a character committed to a religion, and willing to follow along with what the leaders of the religion say to do.

And that is what we are trying to solve, by adding something in the game mechanics that appeals to players, motivating them to play religious characters.

Benefits from being in a religion are a must to me, and being a region lord without a religion should be terrible. A pagan lord of a pagan region should get civil unrest, as the population does not share his beliefs, for they are not even formally presented for anyone else to identify with them.

How can a nobleman of prestige not be part of an established (and thus respectable) cult led by fellow noblemen? How can he 'not care about spiritual matters'?

[egamma]

IMO, if people stop playing religions as boring, then people will want to be priests. But the majority of religions *want* to be boring. If people stop with the boring religion garbage, and this nonsensical "separation of church and state", then we'll have better religion overall.

But this does require something that few people are willing to do, apparently: play a character committed to a religion, and willing to follow along with what the leaders of the religion say to do.

I've never been a part of a religion that wanted anything from me, other than gold. I even went out of my way, several times, to ask a priest what I should do in a situation, and didn't get a real reply in return.

[Draco Tanos]

I've never been a part of a religion that wanted anything from me, other than gold. I even went out of my way, several times, to ask a priest what I should do in a situation, and didn't get a real reply in return.

Wish I had a few like you in the CoH.  Yeah, we'd take your gold, but our priests frequently offer guidance and confessionals.  No one seems to want to actually RP that bit out, sadly.

[Chenier]

IMO, if people stop playing religions as boring, then people will want to be priests. But the majority of religions *want* to be boring. If people stop with the boring religion garbage, and this nonsensical "separation of church and state", then we'll have better religion overall.

But this does require something that few people are willing to do, apparently: play a character committed to a religion, and willing to follow along with what the leaders of the religion say to do.

That's bull!@#$. If people want to be priests of interesting religions, then they can found the religion to their own liking themselves if the present ones aren't appealing, and be as dynamic as they wish to be. Founding a religion is pretty easy, after all.

The fact is, the people who make the religions "boring" and "garbage" and the only people who care enough about religion to make it happen.

IMO, if people stop playing religions as boring, then people will want to be priests. But the majority of religions *want* to be boring. If people stop with the boring religion garbage, and this nonsensical "separation of church and state", then we'll have better religion overall.

But this does require something that few people are willing to do, apparently: play a character committed to a religion, and willing to follow along with what the leaders of the religion say to do.

If you want to force people to be involved in religion, then you must stop making religions so dependent on priests, as it limits the amount of people who can stimulate and creates religions and therefore leaves us with the little choice we have today.

Wish I had a few like you in the CoH.  Yeah, we'd take your gold, but our priests frequently offer guidance and confessionals.  No one seems to want to actually RP that bit out, sadly.

That was more my experience. When I was heavily invested in the religion game, it seemed like no one else in the world actually wanted to make priests important figures of counsel and nobody seemed to care what was right or wrong, or what the afterlife involved. There was a time where most of my characters were important priests and most of my time went towards the religious game, but it's really a waste because religions are poorly implemented, so I have long since stopped caring so much. My only priest left feels more like a museum manager than a spiritual leader.

[Indirik]

The fact is, the people who make the religions "boring" and "garbage" and the only people who care enough about religion to make it happen.

On the contrary, these are the people that generally don't care about the religion, about making it prosper, or providing an interesting and varied game experience. These are the people that run the typical, uninspired, statist religions. They're not in the religion game to RP a religion. They're in it to protect their realm from the foreigner religions. And that's the kind of stuff that needs to stop. Even if it means we lose a few religions along the way.

[Indirik]

And that is what we are trying to solve, by adding something in the game mechanics that appeals to players, motivating them to play religious characters.

Adding game mechanics benefits/penalties will not motivate people to "play religious characters". It will motivate people to join the religion, and then go on with their life as before, completely ignoring it, and probably forgetting that they are a part of it. The religion will gain *nothing* from their membership.

How can a nobleman of prestige not be part of an established (and thus respectable) cult led by fellow noblemen? How can he 'not care about spiritual matters'?

He can not care much about it in the way that lots of people don't care much about lots of things.

You cannot force people to participate in things in a meaningful way. IMO, trying to force people to play the religion game is going to result in nothing more than larger raw numbers of characters in religions, with no change in the number of people that are *active and contributing* characters. You'll just have more drones that continue to ignore you.

[Shenron]

Adding game mechanics benefits/penalties will not motivate people to "play religious characters". It will motivate people to join the religion, and then go on with their life as before, completely ignoring it, and probably forgetting that they are a part of it. The religion will gain *nothing* from their membership.
He can not care much about it in the way that lots of people don't care much about lots of things.

You cannot force people to participate in things in a meaningful way. IMO, trying to force people to play the religion game is going to result in nothing more than larger raw numbers of characters in religions, with no change in the number of people that are *active and contributing* characters. You'll just have more drones that continue to ignore you.

Perhaps we should go even further then. Not only do region lords have to join a religion to keep decent region stats; you should actually be put at some sort of game-mechanical service to your religious elders. Maybe official bad marks that severely hit region stats or perhaps an option to fine lords or something. These wouldn't be used often but they would provide the belief that religious superiors mean something.

Basically we can get people to start reacting to religion to put them between a rock and hard place.

[vonGenf]

you should actually be put at some sort of game-mechanical service to your religious elders. Maybe official bad marks that severely hit region stats or perhaps an option to fine lords or something. These wouldn't be used often but they would provide the belief that religious superiors mean something.

What you are looking for is called "scare followers" and "auto da fe". They appear in the Religion menu (auto da fe only if you are an elder).

Try clicking them.

[Indirik]

What you are looking for is called "scare followers" and "auto da fe". They appear in the Religion menu (auto da fe only if you are an elder).

Try clicking them.

Agreed. You have the ability to enforce your religious will, provided your religion is strong enough and has enough support from other nobles, provided that you have the guts to push for it. If you're religion isn't strong enough to do it, then there's no reason for the game to do it for you. The game shouldn't be giving you power via game-mechanics-clicky-things. You should get your power via personal interactions with other players.

[mikm]

A realm where game mechanic clicky things are a top priority is so boring.