Author Topic: Punishing Players for Not Moving within Half A Turn  (Read 44034 times)

Velax

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From the way the accused has posted here, it's obvious he thinks he did nothing wrong, and nothing anyone says will change that. So a warning is less than useless, as he'll laugh at it and then ignore it. A lock won't convince him he did anything wrong, but at least it may serve to discourage him from doing it again in the future.

OFaolain

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Apologies for weighing in, but this strikes me as rather similar to the Malus Solari case.  My understanding of the events is (and I do apologize for reiterating):

1) General issues order (move out by dawn) (presumably for a half-day move?)
2) Marshal refuses order (don't wanna)
3) General reiterates order, threatening punishment if original order is not followed (do it or else)

In this instance, the order is given and it is demonstrated that the marshal has received it, since he gave response, so there should be no violation in points 1 and 2 (whereas if the Marshal had not received it and had been punished it would be a violation).  In that case, whatever sort of punishment the Judge doled out would be appropriate because the Marshal has refused an order that he received from his General.  I don't think that the General offering to relent if the order is carried out anyway (which is another way you could read the message) should be construed as an IR violation.  It seems to me that the argument is being made that if he had just decreed punishment after-the-fact for refusing orders then it would be okay, but offering to relent if the order is carried out in the original (and acknowledged) time frame is not okay; this makes very little sense to me.  Also, from the Solari case:

Quote from: Tom
I've said it before, I will say it again:

Deadlines are fine by me.

Allowing other people to play at their pace does not mean that time isn't a factor. Obviously, it is. Turns still run, things still happen. Allowing people to play at their pace when it comes to time-sensitive things means two things:
if you need to work with deadlines, schedules, etc. - make them reasonable and do not use points in time, but timespans - "meet me in X in two hours" is a stupid way, you force the other player to be online at a specific time, one that may be in the middle of the night in their real-world location. But "I'll be in X after sunset, meet me there" is perfectly ok. You're simply stating a fact. Now if you have pressing matters, you can add "I will wait at most a day" - that is perfectly ok. The IR applies to you, too. The other player can not force you to play at his speed, either. If you want to move on with the action, you can. You totally can. If that means the other guy misses out on becoming a region lord, getting a unique item or whatever - that is not an IR violation! The IRs do not entitle you to anything.
be ready to reverse your actions - this goes especially for punishments. If you punish someone for not being in X at a given time and it later turns out that he simply didn't log in - undo the punishment. OOC causes should not lead to IC punishment.
But, in all reality, when someone is writing more than two sentences on why something is or isn't an IR violation, he is most likely trying to lawyer you and is just as likely wrong. All the real IR violations I have encountered in over 10 years were very obvious on first glance and could be explained in one sentence.

My understanding from the Solari case was that it is an IR violation IF the player (Marshal in this case) does not log on AND any punishment is not reversed.  This differs from the Tournament IR (you don't even mention it), the Pausing IR (I don't think I've ever seen this come up), and the Unit and Class IR (incentives are fine, commands are not); this is because when trying to get an army to march together sometimes you need to issue deadlines like "move out tonight," or "arrive in the morning".  At least, that's been my understanding of the IRs.
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Chenier

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That sounds to me like the difference between a clear violation of the IR, and a wanton violation of the IR.

A threat depends on intent. Sometimes, things can sound like a threat, when they really weren't meant to be one. If a non-native english speaker tried to warn someone that a forest fire was approaching his house, he could awkwardly warn him by phone "if you don't leave your house now, you will burn to death". Out of context, this sounds a lot like a threat. But with context, would you still consider it as such?

It doesn't matter if the two guys exchanging messages are playing hot-seat on the same computer. It's still an IR violation.

The IRs protect not just the individual player being sent the message, but *all* the players. Letting it slide without comment because you think the other guy may have been on line at the time, and thus got the message in plenty of time to act, let's the realm know that it's OK to send messages like that. Everyone in the realm, including the newb who just joined three days ago, knows that they are expected to be online 24/7 in case something like that happens again. And they may never say anything about it because they don't want to rock the boat. Or because "That guy's a hard-ass, and I don't want to get slapped down". Or because at this point in time they can be online when required. And these players can't be expected to read these forums and analyze 27-page argument about IRs, and log-in times, and all the other back-and-forth garbage we have here to figure out that this stuff is not allowed. (Or maybe it is allowed, since quite a few people here seem to think that this sort of thing is OK.) You can't let it slide at all. When something breaks the rules, it has to be addressed, and the player breaking the rules,and probably the entire realm, need to be told that this stuff is not OK. Do you have to lock him for three days to get the message across? Or toss him out of office in this case? Probably not. But you at least need to send a public warning to let them realm know that you just can't do this.

I don't think there's a "not guilty - give warning" option that we can vote for, is there? Maybe there should be for this purpose. Giving everyone a reminder that expecting high-levels of activity from anyone is not allowed, and that this judgement (if non-guilty) is because activity was not considered to be the target.
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Anaris

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A threat depends on intent. Sometimes, things can sound like a threat, when they really weren't meant to be one. If a non-native english speaker tried to warn someone that a forest fire was approaching his house, he could awkwardly warn him by phone "if you don't leave your house now, you will burn to death". Out of context, this sounds a lot like a threat. But with context, would you still consider it as such?

The IR do not make this distinction. Giving the order is breaking the IR. It doesn't matter if your intent is to save their whole family and their puppy. Giving someone an order that requires them to be online at a certain time, with an explicit threat of punishment, is a clear violation of the activity IR, and must be treated as such if we want people to respect the IR.
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T0mislav

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I have informed myself a little bit better about the situation and it showed that situation A has not happen.
Situation A:
1. General orders to Marshal to move
2. Marshal refuses to follow the order
3. General order to Marshal that he will be punished if he disobey

but the situation B happened.
Situation B:
1. General orders to Marshal to organize movement to attack monsters
2. Marshal fails to do it
3. General punishes Marshal for it and the punishment is that Marshal has to move alone to attack monsters
4. Marshal refuses to commit the punishment
5. General is threatening Marshal that if he disobey he will be punished further

Situation A would not be violation of IR, but step 3. in situation B is clere violation of IR duo to Marshal was punished for not organizing attack on monsters and that means that Marshal was punished for not beeing on line.

I originaly thought that situation A happened, and all my previous post were according to that presumption.
I apologize.

fodder

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snip all that

none of the examples tom gave is a punishment. they simply didn't gain anything.
firefox

T0mislav

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Full Complaint Text:
Letter from Allomere de' Striguile   (17 hours, 32 minutes ago)
 
Message sent to everyone in your realm (53 recipients)
 
Marshal Fal'Cie,
 

 
Are you seeking to claim that under your command the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz is so diminished it can't respond to orders at times it always has been able to? Have you let our prime army waste and dwindle so that it performs like any other rabble from any other realm, requiring a day's notice before it can even be dragged into the field? Are you really going to publically announce that none of the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz will be able to move with half the night still ahead of them...you're supposed to be an experienced commander, but of late it seems you can't even co-ordinate hunting down monsters...These orders are a punishment for your attitude and your unchevalier conduct. I expect them fulfilled, that is I expect to see you in Fields by morn, and Zerujil by dusk, and for the monsters to be destroyed by that time. If not, you will face further consequences, and they will be dire. March well, Marshal, and do as a commander should.
 
Allomere de' Striguile
 
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil




Underlined part referes on orders that Marshal has to move alone to attack the monsters.
It is clerely stated that those orders are punishment - and that executed punishment was punishing Marshal for not beeing online to organize attack on monsters what is direct violation of IR.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 03:03:38 PM by T0mislav »

Gustav Kuriga

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Just a note for everyone, there doesn't have to be punishment for it to be an IR violation. Only the threatening of punishment.

Indirik

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You don't even have to threaten punishment. You can even explicitly say there will be no punishment, and it can still be a violation.
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Penchant

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You don't even have to threaten punishment. You can even explicitly say there will be no punishment, and it can still be a violation.
Please give an example of this.
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Penchant

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Underlined part referes on orders that Marshal has to move alone to attack the monsters.
It is clerely stated that those orders are punishment - and that executed punishment was punishing Marshal for not beeing online to organize attack on monsters what is direct violation of IR.
Punishing for not cooridinating the army is fine, but if they weren't online to be able to cooridinate,  any punishment must be undone, otherwise Tom wouldn't have said this:

Quote
be ready to reverse your actions - this goes especially for punishments. If you punish someone for not being in X at a given time and it later turns out that he simply didn't log in - undo the punishment. OOC causes should not lead to IC punishment.
So unless the player states he was not online to be able to cooridinate the army, punishing for it is perfectly fine.
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
― G.K. Chesterton

vonGenf

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Please give an example of this.

"You need to check orders again one hour before sunset as they may have changed. Of course we can't punish you if you don't, but you really should."
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Indirik

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Please give an example of this.
  • "As you all know, Evilstani is holding a tournament this week. They are celebrating their victory over us in the big battle last week. I say we all stick it to them, and boycott the tournament! So I'd like everyone to show Evilstani how little their stupid tournament means, by staying home and launching an all-out offensive against Evilstani! Remember, if you do go to the tournament anyway, we won't punish you for it." (Some variation of this happened a couple years ago...)
  • "We have a really awesome surprise waiting for the enemy at sunrise. To make it work, we need as many of you as possible to log in during the last hour before the turn, and move to Keplerville. If you can't do it, then it's no big deal, and no one will get fined or anything for not doing it. But the more who do, the greater the chance we have of an awesome victory."
Etc., etc., etc.... substitute any IR for X in the following: "We need everyone to X, but we won't punish you if you don't."
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T0mislav

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Quote
Punishing for not cooridinating the army is fine
- not if not enaugh thime was given
a) "Bring your army to region x in 5 days" - can be fined if disobeyed
b) "Bring your army to region x by tomorrow or you will be fined" = violation of IR


Quote
So unless the player states he was not online to be able to cooridinate the army, punishing for it is perfectly fine.

- player (Marshal) did state that he got the order to organize movement of army he command to late to be able to organize it properly
- then player got punished for it and punishment was order to move alone
- when player refused to commit the punishment he was threatened with further punishment
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 09:40:59 PM by T0mislav »

Penchant

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- not if not enaugh thime was given
a) "Bring your army to region x in 5 days" - can be fined if disobeyed
b) "Bring your army to region x by tomorrow or you will be fined" = violation of IR
As long as you don't act like the whole army needs to be there, as in a few stragglers are ok, I don't see b as a violation of the IR now if the marshal says he wasn't online in time to effectively have the army move he shouldn't be punished.
- player (Marshal) did state that he got the order to organize movement of army he command to late to be able to organize it properly
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