Author Topic: Terran trials  (Read 72049 times)

Perth

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #165: August 20, 2012, 09:53:53 PM »
Shino's Crap

Again, are you arguing all of it failed or are you arguing it was all attempting to maintain the "Status Quo?" Because they are two different things. I won't argue that any or all of it worked as planned or did exactly what it was supposed to do. I WILL argue that none of it was meant to sustain the "status quo" or cement power structures.

If you think Terran leadership is incompetent fine, but to say we only work to maintain the status quo is just simply untrue and a bit insulting to everything Terran has been or is.

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Uzamaki

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #166: August 20, 2012, 09:59:10 PM »
Not to mention Kale has only been Magistrate of War for not even ONE full term. Not to mention he supports young, new players into positions of power quite quickly ALL the time. He directly supported Alura into a Senatorship a month into her joining the game. Then made her Vice Marshal of the Pride, and then Marshal within two months. Hell, he did the same thing with Shino! Directly endorsed him into a Senatorship and into a Marshalship.

But yeah honestly of all the realms I've played in on BM, Terran has to be the least "old boys club" realm I've ever encountered.

Yes, there is definitely some young blood in Terran, and some of them in positions. That is partially because we have so much young blood that it would be impossible not to give them a position though.

True. Shino actually is very grateful to Kale, and likes Kale. But Kale doesn't like Shino anymore...

@Second Perth post: Diplomatically, Terran was not status quo(even though I think they did some things right and some things wrong). That can be agreed upon. Strength-wise, both of Terran and the 'moot, Terran was very status quo.

Terran's leaders aren't incompetent. Kale is a good General, Erasmus was a wicked Judge, but he knew what he was doing, and if anything else Terran has proved that we can move food around using our Banker with the best of them. And, I personally even think Hireshmont knows what he is doing, and that it may even end up being the best thing for Terran! But Shino is impatient and well... Doesn't believe that.

DamnTaffer

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #167: August 20, 2012, 10:12:08 PM »
What I read.  :P

Yeah don't kid yourself, even with the Lurias you'd have trouble taking us. Thats not what I was talking about at all.

Uzamaki

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #168: August 20, 2012, 10:20:12 PM »
Yeah don't kid yourself, even with the Lurias you'd have trouble taking us. Thats not what I was talking about at all.

No doubt. However, Aurvandil doesn't fight two front wars well. Which is why, at least I guess, that they have their little secession state.

Vellos

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #169: August 20, 2012, 10:25:00 PM »
Again, are you arguing all of it failed or are you arguing it was all attempting to maintain the "Status Quo?" Because they are two different things. I won't argue that any or all of it worked as planned or did exactly what it was supposed to do. I WILL argue that none of it was meant to sustain the "status quo" or cement power structures.

If you think Terran leadership is incompetent fine, but to say we only work to maintain the status quo is just simply untrue and a bit insulting to everything Terran has been or is.

+1

I'll note that all of your responses amount to refuting none of my points. You can say Aurvandil and the Astrocracies are bound to conflict: you're wrong, they're not. There is no inevitability. There's not even any real reason they should conflict, especially not now. Maybe in some post-Moot, post-Lurian Dwilight, an Astro-Aurvandi war would be very hard to prevent: but for now, the whole inertia of Dwilight is against war with Aurvandil. Getting Astrocracies to fight Aurvandil is not in any way a "status quo" move.

Sure, we haven't succeeded in accomplishing that. But I will note that the current state of the Moot, insofar as it is attributable to anything other than the Long Winter, is because of attempts to shake up the status quo. If we'd wanted to create a stable status quo with few threats to our power, we would have pushed Barca to make concessions to avoid war: that was a very real option (and one many in the Moot wanted). But we didn't want to preserve the status quo. We wanted to shake up Dwilight.

And behold! We succeeded. Not in the way I personally wanted (broken Moot, discredited Hireshmont, fractured alliances... not his goal), but I think it's hard to argue that southwest Dwilight is currently in a state of dull status quo-ism. I think that's the furthest thing from the truth.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

dustole

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #170: August 20, 2012, 10:40:23 PM »
Terran didn't launch an aggression against the Astrocracies, as Hireshmont never fails to point out. They launched an aggression against Kabrinskia. And we won not because we beat them, in fact, I recall losing a fairly big battle just before the treaty talk started. We won because they allowed us to, and because Allison probably has something up her sleeve. She always does.




I got the best possible outcome for Kabrinskia.  I didn't /need/ to be ruler of Kabrinksia.  It sucks being tied down and being responsible fora whole realm.  A lot of nobles followed me and I got them into powerful positions when we built Kabrinskia.  My leaving and the strings I pulled tied Corsanctum, Astrum Kabrinskia and Iashalur into a federation.  My power and authority isn't because I ruled a realm.  Kabrinskia doesn't need Allison and Allison doesn't need Kabrinskia.  Terran can spin it however they want.  Kabrinskia held its own against 3 other realms and really a 4th since we had to keep so much militia in Golden Farrow as a deterrent to keep D'hara at bay.  That militia cost us about 1/3 of Golden Farrows income.  I was simply waiting for someone involved to make a mistake.  Asylon was the first one to do it and so I did whatever it took to stop the other wars and concentrate on just one enemy.  No one could have predicted that I would put Lysander in charge and simply walk away from Kabrinskia. 

p.s.  Of course Allison has something up her sleeve.  She is always trying to do something or other. Working with Allison can be a great way to gain power and prestige.  I could give many examples, but not everyone wants to be publicly associated with Allison.
Kabrinski Family:  Nathaniel (EC), Franklin (BT), Aletha(DWI)

Geronus

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #171: August 20, 2012, 10:47:43 PM »
1. Failed because the administration wasn't willing to take the step, and in fact disparaged him for suggesting it. Not because it wasn't a good idea/logical. Hence, allies asking us to do it.

2. Astrocracies were always going to fight Aurvandil. Aurvandil hates the Astrocracies and vice versa. In my opinion, it was inevitable. We got Allison out of power, sure... Where she promptly came to Terran via the treaty and is probably plotting to use the Zuma and the Luria's as well as Kabrinskia et al to destroy the 'moot. Terran didn't launch an aggression against the Astrocracies, as Hireshmont never fails to point out. They launched an aggression against Kabrinskia. And we won not because we beat them, in fact, I recall losing a fairly big battle just before the treaty talk started. We won because they allowed us to, and because Allison probably has something up her sleeve. She always does.

3. Okay, I can see you logic behind going to war with Kabrinskia to gain the respect of the Astrocracies to use that against Aurvandil. Two big problems though: Terran's war making ability stinks in part because our RC's suck and our Senate keeps putting that off until some later date, and Barca didn't gain any noteworthy experience from the war. Second one isn't Hireshmont's fault, first one is(at least in part).

4. The only way you could call them our friends if you go with 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. If you do, then it is true, we are friends. But as I have said before, Aurvandil and the Astrocracies are bound to collide sooner or later. They are complete opposites and hate each other and sooner or later that is going to turn into a conflict.

5. Nor do I. But you built your house of cards on a windy day and hoped that it wouldn't fall down. But, due to a series of unfortunate events that weren't quite under your control, they did fall.

Allison had something up her sleeve. She accomplished her goal in signing that treaty for the most part, which was to further Kabrinskia's interests. You may think of what happened as a victory for Terran, but it was also a victory for Allison and Kabrinskia. Everyone got something they wanted. Whatever Allison does now will be something that she decided to do after the fact. I think she's between enemies right now, which makes her possibly one of the single most dangerous things on Dwilight. Sort of like a homing missile that hasn't picked anything to lock onto yet. With the Magistratum trial finally starting up, I predict that it will soon be the Church in her cross-hairs. In the meantime, Terran should be spared as long as they don't go out of their way to antagonize her.

I think you overstate things regarding Aurvandil. If Aurvandil does hate Sanguis Astroism, they have been careful not to say so. Very careful in fact. If Aurvandil wanted conflict with the Church, they could have had it last week when they declared war on Kabrinskia in order to arrest a Kabrinskian priest in Candiels. Instead the High Sovereign was careful (for him, that is) to emphasize that he was uninterested in conflict and quick to offer increased relations. Lysander even got a polite thank you once he agreed to raise relations, which he did hesitate to do. As for us, again, Aurvandil handed us all the Casus Belli we could ever need last week when they declared war on Kabrinskia without warning. If the situation was as much of a powder keg as you are insinuating, it should have blown up. Instead it went out with a whimper. A Crusade could certainly happen, but it's not inevitable; it depends on someone (or more likely, many someones) doing a lot of work to stir up antipathy, argue a case, get all the Elders and rulers on board, and on Aurvandil doing and saying things that can be put to use by demagogues to whip up the faithful. Hireshmont is doing what he can, but it is difficult work for someone like him who doesn't have strong connections with the elites in the Church, isn't well known by the rank and file, and is widely considered to have joined the Church for political reasons. When Hireshmont talks about a Crusade, we all know it's not his righteous faith that motivates him.

Solari

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #172: August 20, 2012, 11:10:55 PM »
I'm very much enjoying this thread, and I'm not the moderator (of this sub forum), but I'll nonetheless issue a plea for folks to ratchet the tension down a bit. The forums are more enjoyable for everyone when people can take the edge off their posts.

Indirik

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #173: August 20, 2012, 11:48:10 PM »
You can say Aurvandil and the Astrocracies are bound to conflict: you're wrong, they're not. There is no inevitability. There's not even any real reason they should conflict, especially not now.
Which is why this is the best time for it!

I think you overstate things regarding Aurvandil. If Aurvandil does hate Sanguis Astroism, they have been careful not to say so.
Brance talked to Mendicant a LONG time ago. Back when Aurvandil was first formed. There were some rumors that shuffled in from Madina to check out. Mendicant made it very clear that he had a strong dislike for Sanguis Astroism. It was quite surprising since, as far as I know, Mendicant had no prior interaction with SA at all. Spent a little time in Caerwyn and a little time in LE, but then went south.
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Anaris

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #174: August 20, 2012, 11:53:01 PM »
Mendicant made it very clear that he had a strong dislike for Sanguis Astroism. It was quite surprising since, as far as I know, Mendicant had no prior interaction with SA at all. Spent a little time in Caerwyn

Well, doesn't that explain it for you?
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Uzamaki

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #175: August 20, 2012, 11:54:45 PM »
I'm very much enjoying this thread, and I'm not the moderator (of this sub forum), but I'll nonetheless issue a plea for folks to ratchet the tension down a bit. The forums are more enjoyable for everyone when people can take the edge off their posts.

This.

Listen, Perth, Vellos, we are going to just have to agree to disagree. I see things one way, you see things another way, and we both think we are right. Personally, I think you are great(VERY GREAT) players. But this debate has gone on long enough, we have both made our points, and I think it is time to drop it. Yeah, I could go on debating, and you could too, but that isn't going to accomplish anything, so let's drop it.

Indirik

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #176: August 21, 2012, 12:03:20 AM »
Well, doesn't that explain it for you?
Not really. The time Mendicant spent in Caerwyn was before the "League" started spewing their poison. At the time Mendicant was in Caerwyn, Astrum and Caerwyn were still close, so far as I know. He was in Caerwyn for less than a month, at which time he joined LE. So there would have had to have been a LOT of anti-SA propaganda floating around in Caerwyn at the time.
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Meneldur

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #177: August 21, 2012, 12:33:27 AM »
The issue of an SA crusade against Aurvandil isn't so much a simple matter of whether or not we think they hate us. Contrary to popular belief SA does not march on crusades at every possible opportunity, as Geronus stated it takes a lot of political will.

I certainly don't think there is a lack of material for a crusade to be launched from; apart from perhaps some new members who don't know the history I don't think anyone seriously believes Aurvandil is friendly to SA and already priests have been given official sanction to stir up trouble in Aurvandil.

However the fact remains that there is simply no political will for a true crusade to be called, as most of us are occupied with other more important matters than a distant southern realm. Perhaps when the war with Asylon is concluded and the Magistratum is over people will be bored enough to want a crusade, and even then Aurvandil would probably have to start destroying Terran and D'Hara before anyone considers them a big threat. Even Constantine doesn't particularly care much about Aurvandil at this point, and he's a lord of D'Hara.

Perth

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #178: August 21, 2012, 12:50:10 AM »
I see things one way, you see things another way, and we both think we are right.

But I am right.
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Geronus

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Re: Terran trials
« Reply #179: August 21, 2012, 01:18:11 AM »
Brance talked to Mendicant a LONG time ago. Back when Aurvandil was first formed. There were some rumors that shuffled in from Madina to check out. Mendicant made it very clear that he had a strong dislike for Sanguis Astroism. It was quite surprising since, as far as I know, Mendicant had no prior interaction with SA at all. Spent a little time in Caerwyn and a little time in LE, but then went south.

First I've ever heard of that. Right now the best people seem to be able to come up with is that off hand comment Mendicant made about religion and a generalized "But they're Saxons!" sentiment. Lysander's holding out for a better rationale than that, but he won't stand against the tide if the Church actually decides to get moving.