Author Topic: Rogue Judges  (Read 34795 times)

Vellos

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #90: October 09, 2012, 05:42:16 AM »
I would just like to put it on record that this is exactly what one deserves for trusting a Leonidas.  Execute first, ask questions later.

As for the RP explanation...Yes, I am glad Tom has made some changes, and as long as this is somewhat limited I don't expect anything further to cause this level of chaos, but consider, for a moment, the implications of having the second most powerful noble in your realm working, for weeks and months, to completely undermine the realm.  That would be absolutely devastating if done correctly, and arranging for the King's messengers to be suborned, assassinated, or discredited as a contingency plan makes perfect sense to me.  I can think of half a dozen reasonably plausible ways to account for what happened, assuming significant amounts of money and influence, which Seperoth certainly would have had.  Whether he had the brains for them or not I will not comment on OOC (my opening remark was a purely Jenredian response, for those uncertain).

I agree that this is an extreme example, but not nearly as extreme as the Thulsoman exploits, and I don't think it's fair at all to make accusations of anything other than taking something a bit far.  I myself was unaware that a new Judge couldn't unban people in the event of a mass and immediate protest to remove the previous Judge, and since that particular loophole has been closed, 'ware to those who piss off their Judges.

+1

Said what I wanted to say much better.

Neither were powerful bureaucrats.

The power structure in the middle ages had two key ingredients: it was local and it was personal (rather than national). In BM you do often see elected Judges as counterweights to the Crown but this was not something you'd see in a medieval government -- a council member might very well be able to pull strings and work against the crown but it would be in a much more Game of Thrones Small Council type of way and not in a 'I have actual specific power over these things that the King does not have.'

Also, "loss of position" in the middle ages meant "loss of life" or "you've been conquered" for landed nobility. The idea of a Count suddenly not being a Count even though he was still around is a BM convention, not a historical convention. In fact you had the opposite problem -- if the guy was alive, even if he was a drooling idiot, you'd have a paralyzed government. "Anarchy" did not exist in the middle ages anywhere near the scale it does in BM.

See above.

It's not about technical or specific legal power. It's about the ease of forging it, ESPECIALLY when the King is running a TO off in an enemy mountain territory in the dead of winter. Hell, it's entirely plausible he could have told all the minor nobles, via various and sundry underhanded techniques and information networks he built up over a long time, that all the elite nobles murdered the king in Haul. Now, maybe he didn't– but the idea that no IC explanation could exist is just silly.

(that said– I do think that what should happen in that case is something along the lines of all banned nobles automatically joining a rebel underground, from which they can then launch a rebellion– this would be a realistic response. The only way the judge could have that power is if he plausibly convinced minor nobles the king was illegitimate/dead. Reconvincing them otherwise should not be a given, so booting the ruler to replace the judge seems reasonable)
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Velax

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #91: October 09, 2012, 07:14:25 AM »
As for the RP explanation...Yes, I am glad Tom has made some changes, and as long as this is somewhat limited I don't expect anything further to cause this level of chaos, but consider, for a moment, the implications of having the second most powerful noble in your realm working, for weeks and months, to completely undermine the realm.  That would be absolutely devastating if done correctly, and arranging for the King's messengers to be suborned, assassinated, or discredited as a contingency plan makes perfect sense to me.  I can think of half a dozen reasonably plausible ways to account for what happened, assuming significant amounts of money and influence, which Seperoth certainly would have had.  Whether he had the brains for them or not I will not comment on OOC

None of this happened. None of it was RPed. He can't retroactively say, "Oh, yeah, I was totally doing all that. I was assassinating and bribing messengers and stuff, and totally RPed it all." Because he didn't. Everyone got the message where the King declared the Judge a traitor. Everyone got it. And if Seperoth managed to assassinate the King's messengers sent to the bureaucrats responsible for enacting bans, it certainly wasn't RPed.

So, sure. You can RP ways this might be vaguely realistic. You can come up with a bull!@#$ RP justification for anything if you stretch things far enough. But none of this was RPed.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 07:19:14 AM by Velax »

steelabjur@aol.com

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #92: October 09, 2012, 07:38:37 AM »
None of this happened. None of it was RPed. He can't retroactively say, "Oh, yeah, I was totally doing all that. I was assassinating and bribing messengers and stuff, and totally RPed it all." Because he didn't. Everyone got the message where the King declared the Judge a traitor. Everyone got it. And if Seperoth managed to assassinate the King's messengers sent to the bureaucrats responsible for enacting bans, it certainly wasn't RPed.

So, sure. You can RP ways this might be vaguely realistic. You can come up with a bull!@#$ RP justification for anything if you stretch things far enough. But none of this was RPed.

Lets not forget that the reason given IC for the bans was that these nobles support the King, in other words, it would be obvious treason to carry them out. Even if the King wasn't present, the level and depth of corruption required to pull it off would be enormous, as would the bribes.

Tom

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #93: October 09, 2012, 10:27:34 AM »
I tend to agree, however, Tom's dictate that 'mechanics trump RP' suggests that mechanics should play the most important part, rather than 'what makes sense.'

You are misquoting me there. That word was said in the context of making it clear that if I roleplay that I am in A, but the game shows me in B, then I am in B. If I roleplay my men as cavalry, but the battle report shows me commanding archers, then I am commanding archers. Roleplay can not change the reality of the game, only fill in the blanks.


vonGenf

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #94: October 09, 2012, 10:41:32 AM »
You are misquoting me there. That word was said in the context of making it clear that if I roleplay that I am in A, but the game shows me in B, then I am in B. If I roleplay my men as cavalry, but the battle report shows me commanding archers, then I am commanding archers. Roleplay can not change the reality of the game, only fill in the blanks.

When the game mechanic tells you that nobles have been banned, you can fill in the blanks by thinking of a way in which it would make sense for them to be banned, but you cannot create a RP that results in the bans not being carried out. Because they have been carried out. I'm not sure how you were misquoted here....
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Tom

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #95: October 09, 2012, 12:23:05 PM »
Because game mechanics are true, but not always right. That's what "abusing a bug" or "using an exploit" means - you found a way in which the game mechanics work in a specific way that they really shouldn't.



Vellos

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #96: October 09, 2012, 05:26:36 PM »
Because game mechanics are true, but not always right. That's what "abusing a bug" or "using an exploit" means - you found a way in which the game mechanics work in a specific way that they really shouldn't.

Except we are always told to play through the bug, which suggests that the bug is "right" from an RP perspective.
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Anaris

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #97: October 09, 2012, 05:30:59 PM »
Except we are always told to play through the bug, which suggests that the bug is "right" from an RP perspective.

First: You are trying to get an ironclad letter-of-the-law rule, rather than accepting the "apply common sense" part.

Second: You are conflating experiencing a bug with abusing a bug.

Third: Where was this concern with "game mechanics trumps RP" when Oradrikkon was swearing up and down that he had received messages that everyone knew he could not, in fact, have received?
Timothy Collett

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Scarlett

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #98: October 09, 2012, 05:46:37 PM »
Quote
It's not about technical or specific legal power. It's about the ease of forging it, ESPECIALLY when the King is running a TO off in an enemy mountain territory in the dead of winter

Really, Vellos? "I have this formal paper from the King disbanding the realm. Please see to it. Oh, he's not available."

There is no RP to support that. It's un-possible.

BardicNerd

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #99: October 09, 2012, 06:06:38 PM »
Because game mechanics are true, but not always right. That's what "abusing a bug" or "using an exploit" means - you found a way in which the game mechanics work in a specific way that they really shouldn't.
Sure -- but until you specifically say that game mechanics shouldn't work in a certain way, other people might sometimes assume that they should indeed work the way that they always have.  Some things that turn out to be abuses can in fact seem reasonable to many people. . . .

Scarlett

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #100: October 09, 2012, 06:10:57 PM »
I don't think there's any doubt Seperoth thought it was reasonable. I don't think he was sitting there cackling away trying to screw over other players rather than just doing whatever he could in character. The very reasonable argument has been made that, well, this hasn't come up enough in the past to be addressed specifically, and that's true.

But this isn't EVE. A modicum of consideration for whether something ought to be possible for your character is not a lot to ask.  That's the source of frustration: you shouldn't have to wait for every single potential abuse to come up and legislate against it. You should spend ten seconds thinking about who your character is and what they could feasibly get away with.

Tom

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #101: October 09, 2012, 06:22:31 PM »
Except we are always told to play through the bug, which suggests that the bug is "right" from an RP perspective.

Maybe, but the real reason is that in a game as complex and interconnected as BM there really isn't a good way to undo the damage of bugs.

Tom

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #102: October 09, 2012, 06:23:36 PM »
Sure -- but until you specifically say that game mechanics shouldn't work in a certain way, other people might sometimes assume that they should indeed work the way that they always have.  Some things that turn out to be abuses can in fact seem reasonable to many people. . . .

Some, yes.

But some things simply don't pass the giggle test. And banning the entire realm certainly doesn't.

Vellos

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #103: October 09, 2012, 11:29:56 PM »
And banning the entire realm certainly doesn't.

To you.

To me it seems easy to explain and eminently plausible. You can auto-ban large groups of rebels in an open rebellion– couldn't Seperoth (and yes, I'm aware he didn't actually do this) have argued they were a conspiracy against the legitimate rulers, namely, himself, and whichever foreign power he was supposedly working with?
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Scarlett

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Re: Rogue Judges
« Reply #104: October 09, 2012, 11:39:01 PM »
Quote
You can auto-ban large groups of rebels in an open rebellion– couldn't Seperoth (and yes, I'm aware he didn't actually do this) have argued they were a conspiracy against the legitimate rulers, namely, himself, and whichever foreign power he was supposedly working with?

'Giggle test' seems pretty unambiguous to me.