Duke/Margrave Dynamic

[Dante Silverfire]

I call this the "mexican standoff" referendum.

I love this. Amazing. I hope no one does that in Coria.

Or points out that we already have such a law in place...

[vonGenf]

Can anyone with a better knowledge of medieval practice comment on the opportuinity of naming Duchies after families?

If I look at this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_England

I see that Barons were not named after a piece of land, but simply after their family name (Baron Cromwell, Baron le Despenser, etc). However the titles of Earls and above were always tied to lands (although often named after a general area, and not a town).

In BM Duchies are the only free-form titles, so we can't copy the practice for Barons, but technically we could for Duchies.

Would it be acceptable to name a Duchy after its first owner (e.g. Duke Bedwyr of the Duchy of Bedwyr)? That could bring an element of inheritance in the game, without needing any mechanics change.

[Eirikr]

I love this. Amazing. I hope no one does that in Coria.

Or points out that we already have such a law in place...

I already did and it was brushed under the carpet. :D

EDIT: Just claim it's for the good of Coria... They'll believe you.

[Ender]

Would it be acceptable to name a Duchy after its first owner (e.g. Duke Bedwyr of the Duchy of Bedwyr)? That could bring an element of inheritance in the game, without needing any mechanics change.

The text in the box for renaming a Duchy says not to name Duchies after players.

It reads as this exactly:

Please do not rename at a whim, no "funny" names, no naming of duchies after their duke or such nonsense. In case of doubt, ask on the forum first. We don't want to have to restrict this feature further, ok?

[vonGenf]

The text in the box for renaming a Duchy says not to name Duchies after players.

It reads as this exactly:

no naming of duchies after their duke or such nonsense

Well, that clears it up. Thanks!

[Ketchum]

In Oriolton, there's a Duke/Margrave who wants a Duke/Margrave/General to step down as General (or margrave/duke).

So...I started a referendum.

Should nobles be prevented from holding multiple positions?

This would prevent a duke from also being a region lord.
This would also prevent a council member from being a duke or lord.

This law will read:
"It is unlawful for a noble to hold more than one position for more than 14 days." The 14 days is to arrange for a suitable replacement.

Vote "yes" if you wish for this law to pass.
Vote "no" if you do not wish for this law to pass.

I call this the "mexican standoff" referendum.

In most situations, we still have that old mindset of Duke/Margrave being one same thing.
Good luck in winning over all the Oritolon nobles :P
See my images reply below.

[Perth]

Better question:

How best to bust up a Duke/Margrave holder?

[Eirikr]

Better question:

How best to bust up a Duke/Margrave holder?

The exile change looks inviting, though it comes at severe personal cost and you'll likely still lose.

[Chenier]

Can anyone with a better knowledge of medieval practice comment on the opportuinity of naming Duchies after families?

If I look at this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_England

I see that Barons were not named after a piece of land, but simply after their family name (Baron Cromwell, Baron le Despenser, etc). However the titles of Earls and above were always tied to lands (although often named after a general area, and not a town).

In BM Duchies are the only free-form titles, so we can't copy the practice for Barons, but technically we could for Duchies.

Would it be acceptable to name a Duchy after its first owner (e.g. Duke Bedwyr of the Duchy of Bedwyr)? That could bring an element of inheritance in the game, without needing any mechanics change.

My understanding is that pretty much every noble was a "baron", in England. Sounds like an unlanded nobility title, from the stuff I had read.

[Scarlett]

Can anyone with a better knowledge of medieval practice comment on the opportuinity of naming Duchies after families?

If I look at this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peerage_of_England

I see that Barons were not named after a piece of land, but simply after their family name (Baron Cromwell, Baron le Despenser, etc). However the titles of Earls and above were always tied to lands (although often named after a general area, and not a town).

In BM Duchies are the only free-form titles, so we can't copy the practice for Barons, but technically we could for Duchies.

Would it be acceptable to name a Duchy after its first owner (e.g. Duke Bedwyr of the Duchy of Bedwyr)? That could bring an element of inheritance in the game, without needing any mechanics change.

I think you are confusing the mode of address with the name of the title. This is a very easy misunderstanding to have because they were often switched around.

Anybody who held a "lordship" (basically anything from a Sire-dom on up) could be referred to by their geographic title. This included dukes - you can see in Shakespeare (or in Holinshead, which was Shakespeare's main source for most of his English histories) where they'll call the Duke of Norfolk just 'Norfolk.' Technically Kings could do this, too, since they were considered the human personification of their realm.

Anything smaller than an Earl-dom (roughly, a county) was typically not going to be a big or important enough piece of land that you'd necessarily want to change your mode of address to suit it, particularly because it would mean giving up your family name. If you go back to Hastings, though, when Willie the conq handed out a lot of lower-level titles to his knights, the baronies or lordships effectivley got named after them, rather than vice-versa -- this is actually the case in my own family, where we have a pile of rubble in the Southeast corner of England that goes back to Hastings but most of us died from the plague.

The other place you'd see baronies used a lot was a higher lord's estate and the surrounds, such that the Duke of Norfolk (place) was also the Baron de Mowbray (the name of most of the early Dukes of Norfolk) and you could also sub-divide the bigger plots so you could have multiple (social) ranks of Baron de Mowbray even if there was only one actual "Barony of Mowbray" - these titles were not really linked to a formal plot of land (e.g. it's as likely as not that there is no place called the Barony of Mowbray) because they were always held by people who had higher titles.

You wouldn't create the Duchy of VonGenf though. The Western Medieval way of handling it would be that Von Genf Dude would get created Duke of Suffolk and from then on only his family, priest, and very, very close acquaintances would even use the name "von Genf."  Same reason nobody would ever call Henry VII "Henry Tudor" once he became King or Edward III "Edward Plantagenet" except perhaps as part of a very formal treaty, and even then it would be Edward III du Plantagenet and quite possibly just so he could rub in his Frenchitude to whatever claim he was making on large portions of France (Plantagenet having come from Anjou, or Angevins). In this example, all the younger sons might be referred to as Lord von Genf (socially) or Sir Von Genf (if knighted) or else the Duke might have a bunch of minor lordships or baronies to hand out to his own family if he wanted them to have landed title and not just social rank. In France you had a lot of this with people other than the King having tons of titles to give out, creating many rungs on the feudal ladder, where in England, a slightly simplified description is that the King had all the major vassals (Earls and Dukes) directly under him and only minor lords under them (Seigneurs, Sires, Lords, but not Earls).

[Scarlett]

My understanding is that pretty much every noble was a "baron", in England. Sounds like an unlanded nobility title, from the stuff I had read.

Every noble with higher rank than Baron was usually also a Baron, but you did have titles below Baron. These were mostly in the early Medieval ages when you didn't have formal peerages but truly "local nobility" and these were titles like Seigneur (the origin of the appellation 'Sir') and Sire. These would be "noble" families with coats of arms and inherited titles but you didn't really see "Siredom of (place)" because as you started getting Kings with proper realms who really ran the place you also started getting Lists of Who Was In Charge, e.g. the Domesday Book, and right around then was when Earls wanted to make sure that they were listed as Boss and if you were going to list that guy from the lesser house of someplace who was his vassal, well that was fine, but no, he wasn't an Earl so you can just call him Lord GuyOverThere, or better yet, just GuyOverThere. Peerages today only have five rungs but if you look at what the college of heralds had to put up with in the 11th and 12th centuries it was a lot of "which is higher, Sire or Chatelain."

Remember that the idea of a "country" really didn't exist until the mid-to-late Middle Ages and even though you had kings prior to William I in England (and super-Kings like Charlemagne) everything was very, very local in the Dark ages, which is why any realm of real size didn't last longer than a generation or two. From the 9th century to the early 12th century, an Earl or a Count is a very high title. By the 14th and 15th centuries, not so much. It's like social inflation.

[Bedwyr]

Would it be acceptable to name a Duchy after its first owner (e.g. Duke Bedwyr of the Duchy of Bedwyr)? That could bring an element of inheritance in the game, without needing any mechanics change.

Naming it after the Duke is out, but I would imagine naming it after a Hero who died fighting in some crucial battle for it would be fine.

And, naming it after some great King of the past sounds perfectly reasonable :D

[Velax]

Hey, so Arcaea could have the Duchy of Trinity, then! ;D

[Bedwyr]

Hey, so Arcaea could have the Duchy of Trinity, then! ;D

Hey, OOC I completely agree.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think Trinity saved the Far East from years of stagnation.

IC, of course, when Jenred wakes up he would die of a heart attack from the horror.

[Velax]

"Hey, guys, I've finally recovered from my months spent in a coma! Hey, who left this map here? Wait, it's called the Duchy of What?"

SPLUTTER-HURK-BLERGH...*dies*