Realm Merger of Solaria and Luria Nova

[Bedwyr]

Capitals being able to change allegiance has been one of the central facets of FEI political maneuvers for years.  It's been a key issue everywhere else because of the need to have someone absolutely trustworthy in charge of your capital.  I'm...flabbergasted.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I think this can safely be considered a miscommunication between the devs and Tom. Thus there is no bug. A bug is a fault where the mechanics plain don't work as they should. The mechanics worked, just miscommunication meant that what Tom intended to be the mechanics and what the devs implemented were two different things.

[Lefanis]

I think this can safely be considered a miscommunication between the devs and Tom.

There are two separate issues here.

One is the issue of the realm merger. In my opinion, nothing about it was friendly or peaceful, so this point is mitigated somewhat.

Second is the fact that the player accused exploited what he knew was a loophole to flip his duchy. His earlier post gives me the feeling he knew he shouldn't have been able to flip the last duchy in the realm, when he said he felt the capital flip was a bug. Surely then he would have known you cannot change allegiance with the only duchy remaining. 

[Bedwyr]

Second is the fact that the player accused exploited what he knew was a loophole to flip his duchy. His earlier post gives me the feeling he knew he shouldn't have been able to flip the last duchy in the realm, when he said he felt the capital flip was a bug. Surely then he would have known you cannot change allegiance with the only duchy remaining.

Except that he was told that the first one wasn't a bug.  If you thought the first one was a bug, were told it wasn't, I think it's highly understandable to go "hm, well this wouldn't be a bug then either".

And for the first point, yes, not friendly.  Very Lurian.  Backstabbing and infighting galore.

[Tom]

I maintain that changing the allegiance of the capital should be obvious to anyone to not be intentional. Can anyone here imagine Paris becoming a part of Germany through peaceful means, or Washington D.C. voting to join Canada?


There is, however, one important thing to consider, back from a time when city == duchy - with the capital unable to switch, a ruler could prevent a duke from defecting by making his city the capital. That is probably where the confusion is from. For that reason I can imagine I once said that we should not game-mechanically prevent it.

[Norrel]

I maintain that changing the allegiance of the capital should be obvious to anyone to not be intentional. Can anyone here imagine Paris becoming a part of Germany through peaceful means, or Washington D.C. voting to join Canada?

I can imagine some culturally-defined area changing from one arbitrary political grouping to another, yeah. I'm pretty sure the peasantry in the area don't give two hoots about what kingdom they belong to.

Anyways, why is a capital special? Why is D.C voting to become part of Canada different from NYC voting for the same? They're both equally absurd (and, considering how nationalism is a fairly recent invention, not especially relevant.)

Even if this weren't true, realism =/ fun. I don't think anyone will have their game experience enhanced by this, it just reduces opportunities for intrigue. Your own dev team disagrees with you, dude.

[vonGenf]

I maintain that changing the allegiance of the capital should be obvious to anyone to not be intentional. Can anyone here imagine Paris becoming a part of Germany through peaceful means, or Washington D.C. voting to join Canada?

If I had never seen this happen before, maybe I would think it's not intentional. However, it has happened multiple times before, and each time someone acted surprised, someone from the Dev team came up and confirmed that it was intentional.

[Solari]

If I had never seen this happen before, maybe I would think it's not intentional. However, it has happened multiple times before, and each time someone acted surprised, someone from the Dev team came up and confirmed that it was intentional.

You've been in on these discussions before, Tom. This was a behavior that was so well established that it was considered obvious on at least one continent. Until your present comments, there's been no indication that that it shouldn't have been allowed, even when raised by the Dev Team.

Are you sure that you aren't mining the past for this opinion? There was a time, years and years ago, when capitals couldn't secede. I can't remember what change ushered in the current behavior, but it was discussed at the time. Hence the confusion. If it's going to be deemed illegal, then it needs to be coded.

[Chenier]

I maintain that changing the allegiance of the capital should be obvious to anyone to not be intentional. Can anyone here imagine Paris becoming a part of Germany through peaceful means, or Washington D.C. voting to join Canada?


There is, however, one important thing to consider, back from a time when city == duchy - with the capital unable to switch, a ruler could prevent a duke from defecting by making his city the capital. That is probably where the confusion is from. For that reason I can imagine I once said that we should not game-mechanically prevent it.

Because we've been told the opposite for years.

I really hated to see it happen, but I didn't believe it to be against the rules either. I have always read that the last region of a realm shouldn't be able to switch, and that a capital can't secede (it's already a capital!), but that otherwise any other duchy could secede and that even a capital could switch allegiance.

[Anaris]

I maintain that changing the allegiance of the capital should be obvious to anyone to not be intentional. Can anyone here imagine Paris becoming a part of Germany through peaceful means, or Washington D.C. voting to join Canada?

If, at any time in the last 10 years, you had raised the objections you are raising now, I would agree with you.

However, there have been a great many capital duchies that have changed allegiance during that time, some of them extremely well-publicized, and you have said nothing like this. Nothing. Not a word.

Tom, for Cthulhu's sake, if you want something in your head to be made part of the game, you have to tell us. We're not mind-readers—neither the devs nor the players. You don't get to just pop up here after this stuff has been happening for years without a single peep from you against it and say that everyone should have known that it was Wrong and Obviously Exploitative.

[Solari]

Because we've been told the opposite for years.

I really hated to see it happen, but I didn't believe it to be against the rules either. I have always read that the last region of a realm shouldn't be able to switch, and that a capital can't secede (it's already a capital!), but that otherwise any other duchy could secede and that even a capital could switch allegiance.

I'm not accusing Chénier of this, but it is a little annoying how quickly players with characters in D'Hara glommed onto this idea of an opportunistic merger. If, instead of assuming that everyone is willing to move heaven and earth for an advantage in a game, they instead sussed out the details IC, they'd have learned that there's a very real disagreement about whether D'Hara was ever really the problem. You know who did bother to find out? Vellos.

[Chenier]

I'm not accusing Chénier of this, but it is a little annoying how quickly players with characters in D'Hara glommed onto this idea of an opportunistic merger. If, instead of assuming that everyone is willing to move heaven and earth for an advantage in a game, they instead sussed out the details IC, they'd have learned that there's a very real disagreement about whether D'Hara was ever really the problem. You know who did bother to find out? Vellos.

Many jumped the gun, sure. And I believe you all that cheating was not the intent. But despite that the intent wasn't a merger, the result sure was, which does sure leave a sour taste in one's mouth.

It'd be just as if Morek found perfectly legitimate reasons to move their capital to Flowrenstown, and then shortly after decide to go to war against the Lurias. I'm sure many Lurians would be annoyed by this, even if the intents proved the move not to be cheating.

[Solari]

I've been trying to dump that second duchy for months, so I would be thrilled to see it dissolved!

[Tom]

Well, to everyone, as the game evolves so does my vision of it.

As I said, in times past there were various reasons to disallow or allow things that may no longer be as true as they used to be.

Both the capital and the last duchy of a realm wanting to change allegiance are strange border cases with multitudes of issues on both sides. I'm not really sure what the game-mechanics should be, but does it really not strike anyone else as extremely odd an event?

[Forbes Family]

Well, to everyone, as the game evolves so does my vision of it.

As I said, in times past there were various reasons to disallow or allow things that may no longer be as true as they used to be.

Both the capital and the last duchy of a realm wanting to change allegiance are strange border cases with multitudes of issues on both sides. I'm not really sure what the game-mechanics should be, but does it really not strike anyone else as extremely odd an event?

I think that is the reason for this discussion. Many do think it is an extremely odd event.