Temporary Lordships for Founding Religion?

[Vellos]

What IC behavior have I said should be restricted? I have no problem with the founder being a prophet. I just don't think the founder must be a prophet.

Anything that can be justified IC, go ahead and do. But I don't see how a temporary lordship for the purpose of founding a religion can be justified ICly.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Until the mechanic changes such as to allow a non-lord to be the founder of a religion, I think there will always be at least some religion founder who will try to cite the mechanical restriction as a justification for such a move, with IC justifications of varying plausibilities provided.

[Bedwyr]

What IC behavior have I said should be restricted? I have no problem with the founder being a prophet. I just don't think the founder must be a prophet.

Anything that can be justified IC, go ahead and do. But I don't see how a temporary lordship for the purpose of founding a religion can be justified ICly.

Only region lords can build buildings in their regions.  It's a fact of the world, the same way that you can't give gold to someone else directly.  You don't snipe at someone for violating SMA by saying that they have to go to a bank to give you gold, you shouldn't snipe at someone for violating SMA by saying they need a region to found a religion.  If they talk someone into giving them one IC, then that's that.

[Hyral]

Only region lords can build buildings in their regions.  It's a fact of the world, the same way that you can't give gold to someone else directly.  You don't snipe at someone for violating SMA by saying that they have to go to a bank to give you gold, you shouldn't snipe at someone for violating SMA by saying they need a region to found a religion.  If they talk someone into giving them one IC, then that's that.

Apparently it isn't, though. Anaris already said that giving someone a temporary lordship for the purposes of founding a religion on Dwilight resulted in Titan action. This conversation is just going to run itself in circles.

But, in my opinion, making that one bit of game text regarding prophets less restrictive would make the most sense. As Vellos said, there is no historical reason that the person who builds the first temple should necessarily be a prophet. There's no game-balance reason I can see that the lord must be a prophet and not simply a devout (who gives up his worldly stuff and dedicates his life to the faith). Convincing a lord to believe in your teachings and build a temple on his land is a lot more immersion-friendly than convincing a Duke to make you a lord for two seconds so *you* can build a temple on the land.

[Vellos]

Only region lords can build buildings in their regions.  It's a fact of the world, the same way that you can't give gold to someone else directly.  You don't snipe at someone for violating SMA by saying that they have to go to a bank to give you gold, you shouldn't snipe at someone for violating SMA by saying they need a region to found a religion.  If they talk someone into giving them one IC, then that's that.

No, I don't snipe at someone who talks about banks. And if somebody did a temporary lordship to found a religion in a realm I was in, I probably wouldn't comment on it or report them to the Titans. But this thread isabout the discussion of this topic. That is it's entire purpose.

But, more importantly, temporary lordships are different than, say, cashing bonds or CS.

First, they are non-essential: you can get your religion founded without a temporary lordship. If you already have institutional support for your religion, finding a lord can't be that hard. Moreover, founding a religion is not an inalienable right. Moreover, as I have noted, there isn't a strong IC justification for why the chief spiritual leader of the religion must be the institutional founder.

Second, temporary positions have been repeatedly condemned in BM. Temporary council positions are the most commonly cited instance, but I don't see lordships as any different.

Third, the Titans have already ruled on this issue.

Fourth, if a person isn't advocating their religion before founding it formally, you better believe I'd snipe at them. My character would ridicule them and their faith. Oh, so you got a lordship, and suddenly God talked to you? Sure. I won't be surprised when we find out you've convinced all the peasant women you're their "Spiritual Husband" either.... If someone sincerely likes the idea of the religion and wants to see it founded, they should be looking for any way to do that: including and not limited to talking to current lords.

Fifth, you have the stipulation "If they talk to someone IC." Okay, so how does that conversation go, in your mind?
Would-be Prophet (P): I would like to be a region lord.
King (K): Why do you think I should make you a lord?
P: Because, if you do, I will found a religion.
K: Oh cool, that makes sense: you want to suddenly have prophetic visions, so I should make you a lord, so that can happen!

Ehh... no? Or, maybe:
P: I would like to be a region lord.
K: Do you swear to attend to your region faithfully, ensuring its loyalty to me and the realm, distributing its assets to your knights, ensuring said knights are loyal and maintain the region, and taking care of the fief entrusted to you?
P: No.
K: What?
P: Actually, I just want to found a religion.
K: What, you can't preach on the streetcorner or something?
P: No, God only talks to lords who have not already joined a religion.
K: So, do you even plan on maintaining the region?
P: No.
K: Will you at least assign your knights to armies?
P: If I remember, but I'll be busy having visions. I'll only even be lord for a day or two.
K: So... you want a lordship... so that you can pursue your religious agenda... and spit on the title I'm offering you?
P: Pretty much.
K: Sounds like you'll make a great lord! Here you go, take this nice townsland!

No.

I'll stick to my argument that the necessity of a region lordship cannot be explained ICly, therefore an IC justification for a temporary lordship cannot exist.

Now, if the would-be-prophet misled his/her king, and founded the religion without giving the ruler advance notice, that'd be a different issue entirely. Or if the would-be-prophet held the position for a significant period of time before founding the religion. Or maybe even if the would-be-prophet held the position for a significant period of time after founding the religion, through re-appointment. Maybe. All of those scenarios would at least complicate the simple model I am addressing, if not entirely alleviate the problem.

[Bedwyr]

The issue the Titans ruled on was a lord stepping down from a region to allow someone else to be appointed so that person could found a religion and then the old lord was reappointed (I talked to Tim about it, and the ruling was "Orchestrating a change of power in Pian en Luries' simply to allow another character to construct a temple is not in keeping with the SMA guidelines of Dwilight. It is an abuse of your power as ruler.") which is a considerably different scenario from taking a new region, appointing a lord because he convinced you that the religion needs a full temple.  Conversation could go thusly:

"Your Majesty, I have spoken to you at length regarding my visions, and I believe that it is time for a grand and glorious temple dedicated to the Gods to be erected.  As the visions were revealed to me, it is only appropriate that I consecrate this temple at every step of its construction, and request full authority over its building and design.  And, as the man to whom the Gods revealed this wonder, I feel it is only appropriate that I be the head of the church as well.  Will you grant me the authority necessary to oversee this construction in Keplerville?"

"As a devotee of the Gods, Sir Crazymanfromthedesert, I will indeed grant you this authority for as long as necessary to construct the temple, with the understanding that as you will be devoting your time to the Faith, once the temple is completed a new secular leader for the people of Keplerville will be required."

[fodder]

a lord steps down to found a religion for someone else with absolutely no intention of being a priest and then gets placed back as the lord is basically as temporary as anything. granted it's not a position per se (unless he doesn't want to be founder either).

whilst you don't want any odd duck to found a religion just for fame, there should be something better to avoid all this.

[Hyral]

"Your Majesty, I have spoken to you at length regarding my visions, and I believe that it is time for a grand and glorious temple dedicated to the Gods to be erected.  As the visions were revealed to me, it is only appropriate that I consecrate this temple at every step of its construction, and request full authority over its building and design.  And, as the man to whom the Gods revealed this wonder, I feel it is only appropriate that I be the head of the church as well.  Will you grant me the authority necessary to oversee this construction in Keplerville?"

"As a devotee of the Gods, Sir Crazymanfromthedesert, I will indeed grant you this authority for as long as necessary to construct the temple, with the understanding that as you will be devoting your time to the Faith, once the temple is completed a new secular leader for the people of Keplerville will be required."

I just can't agree with that. The language is atmospheric, yes, but it basically says the duke/ruler will be giving this noble the authority of the lord without the intention of actually entrusting him with the region's future, that is, the recruiting of knights, the management of food stores, the courts, the RCs, the investments, and everything else a real lord has to care about. The duke/ruler is giving the noble the lordship so he has the authority to build a temple on the land and knows full well that this person is going to abandon his post as soon as he finishes his task. How is that different than a placeholder?

'Oh, Wise Ruler, please grant me the authority to manage the affairs of Keplerville while Sir Kepler recovers from his wounds, so that your lands with will not fall into disrepair in his absence." 

"As King and guardian of these fine people, I do so grant you the authority to manage the region of Keplerville as its lord, with the understanding that you will be stepping aside when Lord Kepler returns."

Ruler grants noble a lordship to preform a certain task, knowing that he will step down as soon as he's done.

Granting a lordship is not just giving the person authority (buttons), it's *bestowing a title*. I thought we have been trying to instill in people that oaths and titles are supposed to mean something. That a title means something more to our characters than the buttons we are able to push as players.

[Vellos]

Hyral has said it far better than I did. That about hits it on the head.

It doesn't matter how well it's stated: it's still not what lordships are about.

[Bedwyr]

So you're going to ignore fodder's point as well?  Someone else founding the religion, violating the text on becoming the prophet, getting immediately reappointed and changing out of Priest as soon as they can is better than getting a temporary lordship through completely IC means?

[Perth]

So you're going to ignore fodder's point as well?  Someone else founding the religion, violating the text on becoming the prophet, getting immediately reappointed and changing out of Priest as soon as they can is better than getting a temporary lordship through completely IC means?

Indeed, this isn't much better, either.

And so it seems that both options are somewhat poor ones when it comes to the foundation of religions in SMA (and in general, really).

Perhaps a better system would be that if someone wants to start a religion, they must first begin RPing and spreading their message amongst other nobles, etc. There could be some kind of option where they could eventually "present religious ideas" to another noble and that noble could opt to "buy into" (or not) what that noble is saying. Once you have, say, 10 nobles buying into your idea, you get the ability to officially found the religion.

This would stem the problem of having any Joe Schmuck just founding religions left and right, and would necessitate someone to care enough to RP some ideas about their religion before its actual founding, ensuring someone will actually care about the religion they are founding. They'll have to put work into it to even get it off the ground first. Solving the big problem in this thread, they won't have to be a Lord in order to found the religion.

[Bedwyr]

Agreed, Perth, a system like that would be much better.

[vonGenf]

Fifth, you have the stipulation "If they talk to someone IC." Okay, so how does that conversation go, in your mind?
Would-be Prophet (P): I would like to be a region lord.
King (K): Why do you think I should make you a lord?
P: Because, if you do, I will found a religion.
K: Oh cool, that makes sense: you want to suddenly have prophetic visions, so I should make you a lord, so that can happen!

Ehh... no? Or, maybe:
P: I would like to be a region lord.
K: Do you swear to attend to your region faithfully, ensuring its loyalty to me and the realm, distributing its assets to your knights, ensuring said knights are loyal and maintain the region, and taking care of the fief entrusted to you?
P: No.
K: What?
P: Actually, I just want to found a religion.
K: What, you can't preach on the streetcorner or something?
P: No, God only talks to lords who have not already joined a religion.
K: So, do you even plan on maintaining the region?
P: No.
K: Will you at least assign your knights to armies?
P: If I remember, but I'll be busy having visions. I'll only even be lord for a day or two.
K: So... you want a lordship... so that you can pursue your religious agenda... and spit on the title I'm offering you?
P: Pretty much.
K: Sounds like you'll make a great lord! Here you go, take this nice townsland!

No.

What about:

Would-be Prophet (P): I would like to be a region lord.
King (K): Why do you think I should make you a lord?
P: Because, if you do, I will found a religion by building a temple.
K: Since I share your beliefs, I will make you Lord. Tend to the region well.

5 days later:

P: Your Majesty, having built a temple and become a priest, I find myself unable to attend my duty as a region Lord. I give all of my time to the flock, and I have less and less interest in worldly concern. Out of respect, I will let you name a new Lord while I take my life into this new direction.

When we say that game mechanics trumps RP, I think that's what it means. You cannot not RP that you are retiring from wordly concerns, because the game tells you that this is a part of founding a religion. However, you don't have to act as if your character knew this in advance. You just have to RP it as it happens.

[Vellos]

So you're going to ignore fodder's point as well?  Someone else founding the religion, violating the text on becoming the prophet, getting immediately reappointed and changing out of Priest as soon as they can is better than getting a temporary lordship through completely IC means?

No, I think it's a very good point. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I would say that the system Perth proposed sounds much better.

VonGenf, if the king is unaware of the person's intention to found a religion, it isn't a problem. But a king who's been double-crossed like that is unlikely to be happy about it.

[vonGenf]

VonGenf, if the king is unaware of the person's intention to found a religion, it isn't a problem. But a king who's been double-crossed like that is unlikely to be happy about it.

Right, so the problem becomes not really that you can't get a lordship if you intend to found a religion, since the character does not *know* he is going to step down, but rather that everybody around has to act unhappy when it happens, even though their players know that it was game-mechanic imposed.

I always found these to be difficult to RP around, frankly. But it can be done.