Kabrinskia, Astrum, and other such stuff of the North Western Astroist states.

[Kwanstein]

Anaris, you are putting words into my mouth. I never once stated or implied that there was a 'right way to play'. All I have put forth is that not optimising tax rates in a game that rewards you for optimising tax rates is bad play. This is objectively true, to say otherwise is illogical. It's not that I dismiss roleplaying, or that I expect too much effort from players; it's just that I identified a form of gameplay that results in suboptimal gold production and by extension military power.

[Anaris]

If this is really the case, then for every other realm, I have just this to say: tough titties for you. Having 90% of your realm's players log in every turn is in no way, shape, or form in violation of the rules, the social contract, the "spirit of the game", or any other such thing. You lose a war because your realm's nobles don't log in and play? Sorry, but I'm not going to shed any tears for you. Just like I didn't shed any tears for Aurvandil when half their regions went rogue because 6 realms declared war on them when they only had 2 courtiers.

BattleMaster is a PvP game. As such it is highly confrontational, and highly dependent on the skill level and effort expended on the parts of the players involved. Maybe not quite so heavily as FPS style games, but it it still counts. If your team can't be bothered to even play, then you *will* lose. And, IMNSHO, you deserve to lose.

Srsly... of all the possible things to complain about.... "They log in and play every turn! That's totally unfair to everyone else!"  I can't believe you said that...

I'm not saying that, and I don't think Velax is saying it either.

What we're saying is that the attitude that if other realms want to have a chance against Aurvandil, they should just man up and get their activity up to what's obviously the most sensible levels is not a reasonable one.

[Lanyon]

We aren't exactly doing stellar at the moment if you haven't noticed. None of us ever said that either. It's like complaining that your RCs aren't of equal quality or your walls aren't as high. If having a bunch of active players is the reason everyone hates us well then they aren't reasonable

[Anaris]

We aren't exactly doing stellar at the moment if you haven't noticed.

Right—because of your belief that keeping your tax rates as high as you could possibly keep them, which, as I said, left you vulnerable to the shock of having war declared on you by so many realms at once.

[Penchant]

I didn't say everyone was doing it right or wrong. That's subjective and I don't really care about that.

What I said was that everyone else was playing badly, and it's true.

Tell me how you can do something badly, yet your not doing anything wrong. I even glanced at dictionary website and under wrong, a synonym was bad. Also preferably make the example not within BM, so that's it a real world example.

[Lanyon]

Do you think if we had met the coalition head on we could've beat them? I sure don't because we were already weakened by then

[Indirik]

I'm not saying that, and I don't think Velax is saying it either.

Yeah, he kinda did:

Honestly? It really is [abnormally high rates of activity]. ... has a massive advantage over every other realm.

... this game simply isn't intended to be played that way. A realm that does unbalances things for everyone else.

What he's saying is that  logging in and playing every turn is: "abnormal", "gives a"massive advantage", that the game "isn't intended to be played that way", and that is "unbalances things".

Sorry, I'm calling Bull!@#$. Newsflash Velax: That game has two turns per day so you can play it twice a day. Playing it twice a day is not abnormal or unbalancing. You want to play once a day and have that be the norm for everyone else, too? Then, as NoblesseChevawhatsit says: Go play on the Colonies.

What we're saying is that the attitude that if other realms want to have a chance against Aurvandil, they should just man up and get their activity up to what's obviously the most sensible levels is not a reasonable one.

Yeah, it is. You want your people to log in more often? Then give them some incentive to do so. Send your inspirational speeches. Make things exciting. Fight the good fight. Send the cool RPs. Fire them up. Make them *want* to play each and every turn so they don't miss anything. Find out what your players want, and give it to them!

I really don't understand why you would choose to attack the Aurvandil players in this fashion. What do you expect them to do, deliberately miss turns so that everyone else can keep up with them? Take a survey of their enemies to find the average number of missed turns for each of the realms they're at war with, and then schedule missed moves for each of their own nobles so they don't have a massive, unbalancing, abnormally high rate of activity, as compared to their enemies?

[Anaris]

What he's saying is that  logging in and playing every turn is: "abnormal", "gives a"massive advantage", that the game "isn't intended to be played that way", and that is "unbalances things".

Aside from the "intended" part, I don't see anything false about those statements. And the "intended" part is, I think, reasonable to say if you consider "what's intended" to mean "what's kept in mind when developing the current game-mechanics balance".

[Kwanstein]

Anaris,

Again your argument is illogical. Other realms DO have a chance against Aurvandil. Aurvandil doesn't even have the most military power on Dwilight, so even a single realm like Morek Empire would have a chance against them, let alone a coalition of Morek Empire, Terran, D'Hara, etc.

Furthermore it's not Aurvandil players who're complaining accusing other realms' activity levels - it's the other way around. It's not Aurvandil saying "everyone else needs to man up", it's everyone else saying that Aurvandil needs to man down, via lowering their activity level and retarding their tax rates arbitrarily..

Furthermore you continue insinuating that the reason some of Aurvandil's regions went rogue was because they had their tax rates at optimal levels. That isn't true - they had their taxes at optimal levels up until everyone declared war on them, but once that happened the optimal levels shifted and they failed to adapt, therefore they were actually at suboptimal levels. So they're not at fault for playing optimally - they're at fault for playing sub-optimally, which contradicts everyone's claims that they play too optimally.

Penchant,

"Wrong" and "bad" don't necessarily mean the same thing. Someone could tell you to bake them a cake and you could bake them an excellent pie, in which case you'd be doing a good job at the wrong thing. Inversely you could bake that person a bad cake, thus doing a bad job at the right thing. So the words don't necessarily mean the same thing.

In BM context what I mean is that while the point of this game is subjective what constitutes optimal or suboptimal play mechanics wise can be measured objectively. So you could make an objective statement that "having taxes above sustainable levels is bad", you couldn't state that "having taxes above sustainable levels is the point of the game".

[Penchant]

We aren't exactly doing stellar at the moment if you haven't noticed.

Took a region in a day, blocked in an army from leaving without using ships while simultaneously attacking another region gap that is potentially making a move at their capital...yeah you guys are doing so terrible. Also this comment wasn't made by you but it was said no significant progress was made by you guys. Well you crushed Barca and have already taken a duchy which you then created a realm as a buffer state for you, and don't even say well it died because you were happy with whatever happened to it.

If having a bunch of active players is the reason everyone hates us well then they aren't reasonable

IC, people hate Aurvandil because they act like a bunch of elitists who don't give a crap about anybody, and everyone else is worse than them and so are their lands (role playing Barca's capital as a bunch of mud huts and extremely uncivilized.) Sure you can act like that but it tends to piss people off, especially since your diplomacy generally sucks too. (Declaring war on Kabrinskia to arrest a priest with a notification mere hours beforehand instead of having their ruler order the priest to leave.) OOC, people don't always like you because there are times where Aurvandilian players act similar to their characters. ( It's your own fault that your realm doesn't maximize gold output in every way possible and discourage characters from being anything but a warrior though not said in those exact words, it felt like it, IMO.)

[Anaris]

Let me clarify some things about my position:

I don't believe that anything Aurvandil is doing is against any rule or guideline. I don't believe they're maliciously trying to exploit loopholes in the game for their profit. I do know that there are (or were, I don't keep close track of their membership) some among them who were members of groups who did such things in the past, and I do know that there remains in Aurvandil a bias against the devs, and a feeling that somehow we are conspiring against them (which, if I even need to say it, is completely untrue).

Furthermore, I do not believe that there is any overt pressure within Aurvandil to be highly active, nor that more than a small fraction (if any) of its players feel that being highly active is a problem or a burden.

I do believe, however, that their high activity is abnormal in the game today—especially for Dwilight—and that it has an unbalancing effect on any conflict that involves them. I believe that trying to claim that their activity is normal or expected on Dwilight in 2012 is to be either blind or foolish.

I do not believe that anything can be gained by expecting Aurvandil to reduce its activity; that's at least as blind or foolish as the other.

I believe that if there can be any solution that removes the unbalancing effect of their activity without angering a lot of players (inside Aurvandil, outside it, or both), it involves a voluntary diaspora, spreading the highly-active Aurvandil players to various realms throughout the game, where they would become a military elite to be looked up to and depended upon, much as elite high-activity armies were in many realms in years past. I do not believe that this can or should be forced, but that it should be pointed out as an option that would both allow the players to prosper, and remove, to a great degree, the stigma that is currently placed on them.

[Kwanstein]

Took a region in a day, blocked in an army from leaving without using ships while simultaneously attacking another region gap that is potentially making a move at their capital...yeah you guys are doing so terrible.

To be fair that happened because the Terran general didn't issue any orders for over a week, so the Terran army was getting gobbled up piecemeal and no regions were properly defended except for a couple of cities.

[Anaris]

Furthermore you continue insinuating that the reason some of Aurvandil's regions went rogue was because they had their tax rates at optimal levels. That isn't true - they had their taxes at optimal levels up until everyone declared war on them, but once that happened the optimal levels shifted and they failed to adapt, therefore they were actually at suboptimal levels. So they're not at fault for playing optimally - they're at fault for playing sub-optimally, which contradicts everyone's claims that they play too optimally.

Er...I think one of us has misunderstood the other. Or possibly both.

What I'm saying is exactly that the regions went rogue because their tax rates were too high.

If you will entertain an example with numbers fabricated out of nowhere, consider a region with a 22% tax rate, and an otherwise identical region with a 19% tax rate. Both receive a sudden shock—for instance, the multiple war declarations by realms the regions' populations looked upon very well.

The region with the 19% tax rate will have its stats dip, but recover, because it has not been on the edge of a precipice.

The region with the 22% tax rate will have its stats plummet, and unless the tax rate is dropped well below 19%, they will not recover, because the people have been bled dry for so long, they need to be treated much more gently after the shock.

Do you understand why I say that running taxes at what you are calling an "optimal" tax rate is a very dangerous thing to do?

[Indirik]

Aside from the "intended" part, I don't see anything false about those statements. And the "intended" part is, I think, reasonable to say if you consider "what's intended" to mean "what's kept in mind when developing the current game-mechanics balance".

Playing every turn, twice per day, is intended play. That's why there are two turns per day. Unless you're trying that even though there are two turns per day, that it is intended for you to only play one of them. Or that you're only supposed to play, say, two out of three turns.

Using terms such as "unbalancing" and "massive advantage" are loaded words intended to imply that the people who are logging in to play every turn are doing something wrong. That doing so is somehow unintended an abusive. I'm sorry, but that's pure bull!@#$. In fact, you could make a damn good case that making such a claim is, in fact, violating the Inalienable Rights of the players of Aurvandil. After all, playing at your own pace is the #1 IR. That manes they can play as often as they want, or as infrequently as they want, and it's no one else's damned business. They are allowed to play as often as they want, and their right to do so is guaranteed by the Inalienable Rights. Complaining that they play too often is just as much a breach of the IR as is complaining that your own people don't play often enough.

[Zakilevo]

Maybe people are just jealous of Aurvandil.  ;) Just maybe...