Southern War of Nobility (Civil war in Madina)

[Nosferatus]

chenier you just don't get how Abbot works i geuss.
Hes kind like an indian businessmen, he likes to know you first, who you are, your family and establish a relation based on respect and a sort of friendship.
He sees a real trade relation like the one between him and your character, like something you do together.
If you lower the price you ask the other one if he'd agree to it, even if you have no other choice then to lower it, Abbot would suspect you to negociate/talk about it first.

it's like living together as a couple, when the couple has a sort of equal relationship, one of them doesn't go just redecorate the house or make other decisions all by him or her self without getting into a fight.
Sometimes you know something in the house just has to change, but usually its more tactful to just discuss it first, even if you already know the answer. (especialy with women, we men tend to care less about all this, women these days don't want to feel second handed or 'less' equal(such a shame ) )
This is how Abbot also sees his long term trade relations with Machiavel.
 

[Nathan]

You are highly invested in a continues good relation with D'Hara. Therefore Chénier, can make demands about food prizes at the moment

Hahahahaha, you've not met Halicos. He couldn't give a crap if not selling to D'Hara means Madina gets a bad rep, he just wants his gold. It's up to Vallyn to ensure Madina's reputation is upheld since he's Grand Doge. If the Duke of Paisly got in touch with him and said "hey, that Halicos bloke is a knob", Vallyn would agree, barter with Halicos, and the Duke would eventually get his cheap food. Simply ignoring Madina and not trying to barter with us is certainly not the way to get cheap food.

If D'Hara doesn't want Madina's food, that's fine. As I've said, there are other sources of food available for them and there are other places we can sell to (we have a rather big lot of our food going to Luria Nova, for example). The Zuma will buy our food for a nice price, it just takes us a while to get there. The main reason I've not pushed for it to be sold there before is because Corin has preferred to sell elsewhere and I'm not about to start ordering him to Zuma lands.

[Indirik]

Assuming you lose absolutely nothing to hordes, which is impossible.  The normal loss you'll sustain from having a horde form and the immediate food eating is catastrophic at such low food levels.

The regions still produce a surplus. Whether or not you can defend the region and protect it from monsters is another question entirely. But I still wouldn't call losing your entire 5 bushel store to monsters "catastrophic".

[Chenier]

And what happens to your calculations if you add the Flow Peninsula?

I don't have the data for that as I can't check up rogue regions on Dwilight. There are many rurals in that area, though, so if it's deficitary I doubt it would be all that bad.

chenier you just don't get how Abbot works i geuss.
Hes kind like an indian businessmen, he likes to know you first, who you are, your family and establish a relation based on respect and a sort of friendship.
He sees a real trade relation like the one between him and your character, like something you do together.
If you lower the price you ask the other one if he'd agree to it, even if you have no other choice then to lower it, Abbot would suspect you to negociate/talk about it first.

it's like living together as a couple, when the couple has a sort of equal relationship, one of them doesn't go just redecorate the house or make other decisions all by him or her self without getting into a fight.
Sometimes you know something in the house just has to change, but usually its more tactful to just discuss it first, even if you already know the answer. (especialy with women, we men tend to care less about all this, women these days don't want to feel second handed or 'less' equal(such a shame ) )
This is how Abbot also sees his long term trade relations with Machiavel.
 

Obviously he sees the trade agreement as something that should be static and unchanging, because the trade agreement is grossly in favor of Abbot. It's all free money for him, as he just dishes out stuff he doesn't need and Paisly turns it into money. Long-term, Madina is nowhere in D'Hara's food plans, because it's just way too greedy with a bloated sense of self-entitlement. The total apathy for Paisly's financial troubles and the threats of selling elsewhere and bloating prices if a crisis occurs really isn't making him any friends at all, but rather pushes D'Hara to help other markets grow so as to cut all trade with Madina as soon as possible.

Hahahahaha, you've not met Halicos. He couldn't give a crap if not selling to D'Hara means Madina gets a bad rep, he just wants his gold. It's up to Vallyn to ensure Madina's reputation is upheld since he's Grand Doge. If the Duke of Paisly got in touch with him and said "hey, that Halicos bloke is a knob", Vallyn would agree, barter with Halicos, and the Duke would eventually get his cheap food. Simply ignoring Madina and not trying to barter with us is certainly not the way to get cheap food.

If D'Hara doesn't want Madina's food, that's fine. As I've said, there are other sources of food available for them and there are other places we can sell to (we have a rather big lot of our food going to Luria Nova, for example). The Zuma will buy our food for a nice price, it just takes us a while to get there. The main reason I've not pushed for it to be sold there before is because Corin has preferred to sell elsewhere and I'm not about to start ordering him to Zuma lands.

You fail to understand that you will *never* trade to the Zuma again. And that D'Hara has many other markets to purchase from, and that the Lurias are only a short-term buyer because they produce surpluses and will not require your food once they have safe-enough surpluses stashed away.

The regions still produce a surplus. Whether or not you can defend the region and protect it from monsters is another question entirely. But I still wouldn't call losing your entire 5 bushel store to monsters "catastrophic".

Agreed. If you have significant food levels in a plagued region, you can easily move it away until the rogue problem is dealt with.

[Bedwyr]

The regions still produce a surplus. Whether or not you can defend the region and protect it from monsters is another question entirely. But I still wouldn't call losing your entire 5 bushel store to monsters "catastrophic".

Horde spawns at turn, immediately does damage to the region and eats the food.  There's literally nothing you can do about that, even if you had an army there it still happens.  And if you don't have an army sitting in the region, then it takes time to kick the horde out.

[Chenier]

Horde spawns at turn, immediately does damage to the region and eats the food.  There's literally nothing you can do about that, even if you had an army there it still happens.  And if you don't have an army sitting in the region, then it takes time to kick the horde out.

Do they eat hundreds of bushels on the turn they spawn, though? Does production drop 50%?

Considering how large Luria is, any one region damaged really changes little when you consider the whole thing.

[Bedwyr]

Do they eat hundreds of bushels on the turn they spawn, though? Does production drop 50%?

Considering how large Luria is, any one region damaged really changes little when you consider the whole thing.

Seventy plus isn't uncommon.  Production drops of 5-10% are fairly common.  I don't know what that would do to one of the Divide Mountains, considering their population.

[egamma]

Horde spawns at turn, immediately does damage to the region and eats the food.  There's literally nothing you can do about that, even if you had an army there it still happens.  And if you don't have an army sitting in the region, then it takes time to kick the horde out.

Spread your food around then, or keep it in cities that are less likely to have spawns.

[Chenier]

Seventy plus isn't uncommon.  Production drops of 5-10% are fairly common.  I don't know what that would do to one of the Divide Mountains, considering their population.

Considering you can probably get max pop from 1 peasant in about a day for these regions thanks to emigration, I'd say it wouldn't really do much at all to them.

And I concur with egamma: if you can't defend a region, don't stash your food there.

[Bedwyr]

Spread your food around then, or keep it in cities that are less likely to have spawns.

Heh, that is with most of the food stuffed into the cities and townslands, and keeping what's left distributed.

[Chenier]

Still, 75 food is significant, but not dramatic. I would wish that these damages wouldn't occur before combat can occur, though.

It all depends on the frequency of the rogue spawns and of the will and speed to deal with the issues.

[Nathan]

You fail to understand that you will *never* trade to the Zuma again. And that D'Hara has many other markets to purchase from,

As I've said, there are other sources of food available for them [the D'Harans]

Darling, I understand you're angry, but please don't just repeat me, it furthers no discussion

As for the Zuma, is that a threat? Or a promise? Because I'm fairly certain both of those you are in no position to make. Threats cannot be backed up as we know how wars go between D'Hara and Madina. A promise would be rather dependant on knowing the future, so I'll take the numbers of the Euro lottery now please

[Bedwyr]

Still, 75 food is significant, but not dramatic. I would wish that these damages wouldn't occur before combat can occur, though.

It all depends on the frequency of the rogue spawns and of the will and speed to deal with the issues.

I never said they were insurmountable.  I said they skewed the numbers to the point where I want to buy food from outside sources.  Which, happily, I can do.

[Chenier]

Darling, I understand you're angry, but please don't just repeat me, it furthers no discussion

As for the Zuma, is that a threat? Or a promise? Because I'm fairly certain both of those you are in no position to make. Threats cannot be backed up as we know how wars go between D'Hara and Madina. A promise would be rather dependant on knowing the future, so I'll take the numbers of the Euro lottery now please

Indeed we do know: they result in Madina getting their asses kicked. Considering how hard a time Madina has with Aurvandil, I would dare say the last thing they need is to piss off the 'moot. Most are pro-neutrality, but that's an extremely fragile balance. Because really, Aurvandil amasses bigger armies and does great damage on all their own, without even any siege engines, right? How well would Madina fare if troops and siege engines were granted to allow Aurvandil to break the Tower? How then would Madina fend off Aurvandil, if they lose access to the tower?

Fact is, Madina doesn't own rights to any of the passages to the Zuma. Neither Barca nor D'Hara would allow foreigners to use their lands to sell to the Zuma. Unless you plan on taking the land route to Mimer, and then go to the Zuma via Astrum. Then be our guests, you'd be fully in your rights.

As I said, most favor neutrality. But if you go pissing off the 'moot by trespassing, then you do so at your own risk and perils. Madina's recent proclamations of good intent were well received, but these gains would be very easy to ruin.

[Phellan]

Because really, Aurvandil amasses bigger armies and does great damage on all their own, without even any siege engines, right? How well would Madina fare if troops and siege engines were granted to allow Aurvandil to break the Tower? How then would Madina fend off Aurvandil, if they lose access to the tower?

Actually Aurvandil fields Siege Engines, as they have a workshop in their Capital.    And huge damage?  Please - the only damage they ever did was when they broke the ceasefire initially and attacked our near-empty Capital.   Otherwise they've lost every battle they ever came to, and usually quite badly.