Southern War of Nobility (Civil war in Madina)

[DoctorHarte]

....

I really want to believe you're joking.

But then... I'm not totally sure.

Stronghold walls?

LOL.

Last time ya'll were boasting about getting them down to Palisades.

So... you got them down to Palisades... and the next time you attacked... they were up to Stronghold again?

Is that boasting? I was telling  what happened in the battle. It was a good battle 23k CS vs 15k CS behind level 4 walls. We managed to get on top of the walls with a lot of infantry, but their infantry were better equiped than ours, something we gotta work on.

[Indirik]

I would never expect them to actually do it.

But then again, I don't see your point. It's a complicated manoeuvre, that is extremely costly and has probably poor odds of success.

None of which alters the fact that this is one of the most ridiculously meta-gaming suggestions I have ever heard.

[Indirik]

I just think you're all metagamers. 

All joking aside, it's essentially impossible to /not/ meta-game in some fashion or other when playing the game. Even the rate at which our characters throw themselves into battle completely without fear of the consequences is meta-gaming.

[Indirik]

It was a good battle 23k CS vs 15k CS behind level 4 walls.

* Indirik lols

Aurvandil loses 16K CS, and Madina loses 5K. Why did you stick round for a second round?

[Chenier]

None of which alters the fact that this is one of the most ridiculously meta-gaming suggestions I have ever heard.

Then tell me, is writing a message meta-gaming, because you know it'll arrive in real-time despite such things not working IRL?

There's a clear distinction between using the tools available when appropriate and using them because of how they differ from what real life would make them work like.

Please elaborate on why you think it is metagaming. I've already asked this, and you content yourself with saying "this is bad", without justification. I'm starting to think some of you you are just starting to stalk me to shout "but isn't THAT metagaming!" at every thing I say.

None of what I suggested, as explained in my previous post, would be done or justifiable by how the game mechanics work as opposed to RL. You could perhaps claim "power gaming", which is very different from meta gaming, but I'd disagree with you then too because 1) it costs so much there's nothing powerful about it and 2) what the hell else is the feature even there for?

Some factors, like the fact that nobody can take action against the family mansion, aid the action in being more potent. But that's just an extra. You wouldn't move your mansion because it's untouchable, you move it because it'll allow your family to go meddle in other people's stuff. Just like writing messages. You don't write them because they are delivered in real-time, you write them because you have something to say. Doesn't make the real-time bit any less potent, but still doesn't make writing messages meta-gaming.

Meta-gaming is all about justification of intent. Are you doing something that you would not do IRL because of how it differs in the game-world? If yes, then it's meta-gaming. If not, then it isn't. It can be a whole lot of other things, but it's not meta-gaming.

And a whole bunch of high noble families in the middle ages sent their family here and there, everywhere, to exerce influence in foreign lands. So it's totally something that is justifiable IC.

[Vellos]

Is that boasting? I was telling  what happened in the battle. It was a good battle 23k CS vs 15k CS behind level 4 walls. We managed to get on top of the walls with a lot of infantry, but their infantry were better equiped than ours, something we gotta work on.

I'm just loling at the fact that you've viewed the last two battles in Tower Fatmilak in a row as "accomplishing your goals," and yet Madina's defenses get stronger every time.

[Indirik]

Then tell me, is writing a message meta-gaming, because you know it'll arrive in real-time despite such things not working IRL?

Yes.

Actually, there is quite a bit of metagaming that we all do. But that doesn't mean that every bit of it is bad. Letters and how the message system works is a prime example of this. The ability for instant communication that all of our characters blithely use without a second thought is something that cannot be explained in an IG/IC way. Yet we all use it, and depend on it. So, we are all metagamers.

The thing is, you simply can't play BattleMaster without dong a lot of metagaming. (Depending, of course, on how you define metagaming. But that's really not important.)

Please elaborate on why you think it is metagaming.

Seriously, you can't think why this is just a really, really nasty example of metagaming, and simply poor play?

OK, for starters, you proposed that an entire realm (or significantly large portion of it that it doesn't matter) changes class to hero, then picks up 500-600 gold each, and moves into the enemy's capital, then sends letters to their beloved families and asks them to relocate their family mansions to the middle of a war zone, into land that just happens to be controlled by their mortal enemies. Yea, I just bet dear old Aunt Tilly will be thrilled about that. "Oh, don't worry, Aunt Tilly, I'm sure the Madinans will welcome you with open arms. They wouldn't dare arrest you, toss you into a dungeon, and seize all of your new land."

I'm starting to think some of you you are just starting to stalk me to shout "but isn't THAT metagaming!" at every thing I say.

Wups... you caught me.

1) it costs so much there's nothing powerful about it

"It can't be metagaming/powergaming. It's expensive."

Meta-gaming is all about justification of intent. Are you doing something that you would not do IRL because of how it differs in the game-world? If yes, then it's meta-gaming.

Which is exactly the case with your proposal. You proposed that they all move their family homes into a war zone in a region held by their enemy. Is this something that makes sense, and seems even the tiniest little bit realistic? Of course not. The fact that family mansions can't be seized/looted/etc. is the only thing that would keep them from being, well, looted and seized by the enemy.

And a whole bunch of high noble families in the middle ages sent their family here and there, everywhere, to exerce influence in foreign lands. So it's totally something that is justifiable IC.

Yeah, sent various family members around. Not relocated their entire family and estates at the drop of a hat.

[egamma]

Sorry Chénier, I'm with Indirik on this one. It's metagaming because there is no IG/realistic explanation for doing something like this.

[Vellos]

The fact that family mansions can't be seized/looted/etc. is the only thing that would keep them from being, well, looted and seized by the enemy.

I've often wished they could be.

Would create new political concerns.

[DoctorHarte]

I'm just loling at the fact that you've viewed the last two battles in Tower Fatmilak in a row as "accomplishing your goals," and yet Madina's defenses get stronger every time.

you come play in Aurvandil, wait around for 2 months THEN attack them. It feels like more then getting mauled by Madina, because we actually got to fight each other on epic proportions! But I've never liked Atamara of it, that's what I live for - those huge battles and scant exchange between the enemy. If we got back and forth as we have been, now it's Madina's turn to swat at us.

* Indirik lols

Aurvandil loses 16K CS, and Madina loses 5K. Why did you stick round for a second round?

To damage their walls enough that they went down to level 3.

[Indirik]

To damage their walls enough that they went down to level 3.

Depending on how bad their walls were, you may have saved them some money by knocking them down.

Regardless, let's say you lost 300 soldiers in the second battle. At 35/10, that's 1,050 gold you lost. Chances are that the walls cost, at most, about that much to rebuild to lvl 4. Doesn't seem like a very good trade. You could have saved the expense of rehiring all those men, and left them with probably somewhere around a 900 gold bill for repairing the walls. This would also shorten your refit times considerably. But if you lost a bit more than that, say, 400 men, then you definitely got the short end of the stick.

[Velax]

What sort of crappy soldiers are you using that only cost 35/10?

[Lefanis]

But I've never liked Atamara of it, that's what I live for - those huge battles and scant exchange between the enemy.

You left Helmsdale too soon. We regularly pawn the Caergoth aggressors every other week in massive battles 

[Indirik]

What sort of crappy soldiers are you using that only cost 35/10?

Well, they are a small realm. And with their small economy, and the massive troops numbers they are tossing around, I figured I would give them the benefit of the doubt. If you assume better troops at the rate of 40/10 or even 45/10, then the numbers get much, much worse for Aurvandil.

[Nathan]

Any update on the war? I'm taking a bit of a break from BM whilst life is hectic so not able to take part in taking back our grand city from the stinky rebels!