Imperial design round table

[Valast]

Lukon has the power to start this...  but I can not and will not do the OOC planning alone.  These are OUR Colonies... Lets repair them together.

ideas?

[egamma]

Over Gellins' dead body!

[Valast]

Could be...

[Ketchum]

I do not feel we all are repairing it at all. Perhaps we are doing some sort of rebalancing by warring among ourselves.

The last 4 big realms: Minas Thalion, Outer Tilog, Oritolon and Lukon are warring among themselves ::)

[Valast]

There are only three big realms left...

The Colonies are broken.  We hardly ever get new players, every realm has run off most infiltrators, we are constantly sitting doing nothing.

Making smaller realms from big ones will fix this by creating more rapid action and intrigue.

But no matter what anyone says, I will not just let Lukon break up and call it a day.  Everyone has to break up and it needs to be done IC.

I know the whole Empire thing will not last.  I do not even want it to.  BUT it is an IC way to bring about a change... and an IC way to let us all talk about some common laws we think will help prevent the Colonies growing stagnant again.

I dont care if some people hate the idea.  If I can pull it off IC I am going to do so.  Most of the people who have been against the idea have thought it a better idea for Lukon to just kill all realms and force admin to reset the Colonies.  I say bunk to that!  I want to keep our realm and island history and work it out our selves.

For every noble that fights against the Empire, there is another noble who will want the power stripped from the first noble.  *shrug*

[Psyche]

The problems are these:
For the same reason you want to do this IC, these realms have their own histories, and don't want to split up.  If you really feel like small realms, create it in Lukon.  You could easily arrange a schism of the state in methods of fracturing from an undesirable government, or rewarding your dukes by granting them independence.  From there you can either fight amongst yourselves or war others.
In general, Oritolon seems to keep to itself, and political turmoil will eventually split it up.
OT isn't exactly known for its military prowess.  A war between them and MT and the Guild could drag out nicely.

Secondly, I don't think many like the idea of an empire started by Lukon.  Even if it didn't feel like surrender, people just don't like Lukon.  They generally keep peace with them for their well being, but Lukon has been part of the destruction of every fallen realm in the Colonies, and in the loss of two of the realms capitals.  As fun as Lukon can be some times, they just don't have any fans out there; they even turned on their allies from forever ago.

[Valast]

Psyche, those are the reasons why the Empire idea will likely never come about.  BUT Lukon will still get its way by doing the exact thing that made everyone hate them... they will dismantle everyone brick by brick until they can safely divide themselves.

I realize I could just divide Lukon... in fact all the duchesses are already preparing their lands to do it.  But IC why would Lukon divide its self?  I do not arrange conflict ooc like some do.  If there is a fight it is IC and comes from IC developments...I have always played that way and always will.

Right now the Colonies are dying IC.  My character thinks she has a way to change that by providing the Empire (or web of treaties or what ever you want to call it).  IC Lukon is doing what it has always done, which is fight against anything and anyone who is in the way of its plans.

It may be why everyone dislikes Lukon but that is the way Lukon has been handled for going on a decade.  As for loosing a realms history, I do not see how that is an issue.  Oritolon remains Oritolon and becomes a three realm Empire of its own...but it is still Oritolon.  No one in Oritolon cared about Alebads history...or Alowcas.

As for Lukon turning on Oritolon... that has been coming for along time.  Oritolon has been the foothold of anti Lukon movements for years now.  If a ruler could be 'handled' by Lukon then they were allowed to remain.  If they were a problem then Lukon would use some of the Intel they had gathered over months to help force them out via political scandal.

Anyway... its moot.  Lukon will not divide until it is not at IC disadvantage to do so...or of course they are betrayed by one duchy or another.  Until then they will move to force Oritolon into three separate realms.  Once that is accomplished they will negotiate with OT on doing the same.

[Psyche]

IMO, you are not doing this purely IC.  You have said yourself that you are trying to renew and revitalize the island.  The end result you desire and the road to it do not agree.  There are two large realms that are reluctant to give way to Lukon because there is no fun in trying something that many view as impossible.  For the other realms, you have already more or less crippled them to the point where only a few council positions and lords can do anything but boring courtier work, priestly stuff, and sit and RP.

Minas Thalion,  for example, haven't had a capital for like a year it seems.  Would the majority of players in the game be content to sit in a region unable to recruit, cash bonds, and do even a few minor things that the two actions allow?  Sure, it might sound like a cool challenge to rise from the ash to restore a realm, but sit around for a year?  It's just not fun.


Personally, I think you should take an alternative route.  There was discussion on the forums before about the idea of limited warfare.
Some examples would be:
Oritolon wars OT over claims to Volkanita.
If Oritolon wins, they get the region.   If they lose, they pay OT 1000 gold preparations.
Both parties agree to a 3 month period for this war.

Lukon wars Oritolon for rights of passage and preaching.  If they win, they get them; however, they pledge to ban any noble who violates a treaty respecting the boundaries.


No realms are destroyed, everyone can be provided some fun challenges, AND we (the players in the Colonies) can test a concept before people decide if it might be a good addition to try on other islands.
War games could even be done in a single realm, I suppose, though limited.  The Duchy of Wetham might challenge the Duchy of Portion that their nobles can rack up 500 gold or bushels of food in loot of a foreign realm the quickest.  They could have wagered that the losing duchy host or at least finance a tournament in honor of the victor; or some land could be exchanged.


Either way, you could have clear goals that give satisfaction without "changing the balance of the island," as many people worry about in wars.  You get your excitement without having done any permanent damage; thus, keeping the fun coming.

This isn't to say we couldn't have serious wars with dire consequences, but it at least would pursue an avenue other than an "all or nothing" mindset that many have. 

Hell, even if you want to see Lukon reigning supreme you could flex their might in creative ways.   You could impose a war game on other realms, if you wanted.  Example:
Lukon wants to see who is the more worthy opponent, Oritolon or Outer Tilog.  Lukon gives the terms that the victor must take and hold 3 regions from the loser within 3 months.  Lukon will reward the victor 3000 gold, and enforce s treaty that grants the victor control of the regions for 3 months after their win.
Should the two realms refuse, Lukon will sack both capitals until they are reduced by 2 levels of fortification each.

Who knows, the Duchy of Wetham and realm of OT might even have a secret wager that if the duchy rebels and isn't crushed in a month the two will ally, but if they lose they will give away some lands before Lukon can get them.

[feyeleanor]

The history of the Colonies doesn't lend itself to limited warfare, and for that to change it will need a Year Zero moment. Lukon likely has the military strength to achieve that and Valakyrie's scheme presents a way of doing that which would inject some new life into the island.

Such a war is in any event unavoidable as Lukon naturally seeks to remain engaged whilst the number of realms she can war diminishes.

Neither the Assassins or Minas Thalion have the wherewithal to provide good sport due to the poverty of the north and their lack of capital cities. Therefore war with Oritolon and Outer Tilog are the logical steps IC with it likely at the bare minimum that OT city and Alebad will fall within weeks of first assault.

Perhaps if the two realms worked together they might hold their own. However I don't see that happening given their mutual history of avoiding conflict with Lukon. That ship sailed a long time ago.

[James]

Outer Tilog is dealing with this entire thing IC only but we have always been in favour of single city realms only and that no realm is destroyed completely (as it removes a food item from our menus... We still long for the days of Portions of Portions and Giblets of Giblots... The variety over the barbecue pits is somewhat lacking...)

Any who have spoken to Rakaarox about this are aware of the stance of Outer Tilog, that we agree with the ideal behind the Empire (just not that it should be called an Empire or have anyone as an Emperor... but that is a minor point that can be worked out once the ideal state is achieved...)

[Valast]

IMO, you are not doing this purely IC.  You have said yourself that you are trying to renew and revitalize the island.  The end result you desire and the road to it do not agree.  There are two large realms that are reluctant to give way to Lukon because there is no fun in trying something that many view as impossible.  For the other realms, you have already more or less crippled them to the point where only a few council positions and lords can do anything but boring courtier work, priestly stuff, and sit and RP.

From my characters perspective... the island is boring and dieing a slow death.  Lukon's culture is based on war, as such she wants to provide a place for more of it and in her opinion it will draw new young adventurous nobles which will replenish the ranks of the old warriors who still guard Lukon's walls.

As for two realms reluctant... that would be incorrect.  With OT it is all about the details, which will be worked out... Oritolon is divided on it into at least 4 factions I think.  In the end it will not matter what the ruler or majority want, it will matter what the Dukes want, so it is far from impossible.

The only connection between IC and OOC about this is that between what my character seeks to accomplish and what fun it will help to bring back to the players on the Colonies.

Personally, I think you should take an alternative route.  There was discussion on the forums before about the idea of limited warfare.

This is exactly what I envision with all of this.  Without all the game mechanics in place to make everyone comply...the idea of Empire came up.  But we do not need to get caught up on the term empire (although that is exactly what the queen of lukon will call it anyway) Call it a council of the nations, or the binding civil agreements of the Colonies...or a baloney sandwich...the end result is the same: binding international treaties of ALL city states in the Colonies.

Those treaties are to be worked out together so that we can all put our thoughts in.  The points which I have mentioned multiple times...

Limited wars:  Set and announce your goals when you declare war so that everyone is clear on what in the end will finish it.
Unification against annihilation: Each realm agrees to halt other wars and unite against a realm(s) who choose to finish off another realm(s)
Laws of Infiltration:  Infiltrators deemed honorable if attacking nations/people the realm is at war with, people who are on the bounty list, or if in the Assassins - nations they have a contract for.  Also realms will be free to use actions against infiltrators captured however once an infiltrator is banned the infiltrator may purchase that ban so it is lifted (gold amounts and such to be worked out in council?)

Those are the main ones... but others that we should discuss are religion, adventurers, heck we could even make it more honorable and respectful for someone to be a Hero....limitless

Setting it up can be fun for political type people... so I thought:

Senate guild house: to be erected in each capitol so that all nobles can join...
Electors: each realm has three electors, the ruler and two others chosen how ever the realm wants.
Emperor/house leader/guild head/Muppet master/lead acrobat, term of office: 3 months?  no back to back terms?

No where in all this is there much central control.  If a realm bucks the system, all the person in the seat can do is point it out and make suggestions.  Realms are the only place where action can come from.  No where is anyone trying to control realm politics.  In the end the whole thing may break down, but if the majority of realms stick to the treaties that are put in place then the Colonies becomes a great place to be.

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The history of the Colonies doesn't lend itself to limited warfare, and for that to change it will need a Year Zero moment. Lukon likely has the military strength to achieve that and Valakyrie's scheme presents a way of doing that which would inject some new life into the island.

Thank you Feyeleanor... That is exactly the point.

The Colonies have a good strong history...but that history began with realms wanting to destroy Oritolon and Lukon.  That set the tone for the Colonies.  Good or bad over the years...not the point.  What is the point is that we have a chance right now to set a new tone.  Year 0... Day one of the Colonial Empire (again, I keep repeating that this is just a name. I think it is an empire but one that does not control the cities...just helps set the tone)

Such a war is in any event unavoidable as Lukon naturally seeks to remain engaged whilst the number of realms she can war diminishes.

:) Lukon will always be at war.  It is what they do.

The prospects of cool things to do under the Empire are huge.  Unite city states into a federation and lead an empire of them within the Colonial Empire... Spread democracy to the other nations... Religion to other lands... All with a basic safety net that brings a mutual acceptance of respect towards nobility.

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Some people think that this can all be done without breaking into city states.  Well... they are wrong.  we need that zero point... otherwise we will be at the mercy of who ever comes next at takes over the region who was not talked into becoming city states.  Let them come...but let them take over the southern Oritolon Empire, or the Wetham OT federation... or even the entire colonies empire if they can.  But let them do it within the new colonial standards.

[James]

The Colonies have a good strong history...but that history began with realms wanting to destroy Oritolon and Lukon.  That set the tone for the Colonies.  Good or bad over the years...not the point.  What is the point is that we have a chance right now to set a new tone.  Year 0... Day one of the Colonial Empire (again, I keep repeating that this is just a name. I think it is an empire but one that does not control the cities...just helps set the tone)

From Lukon's point of view maybe... Outer Tilog's history started with our good friends Giblot and then the various betrayals from them. Lukon came quite late into our history really... Oritolon even later...

[egamma]

Or, a secret society made up of members of all the realms except Lukon will help guide and convince all the realms of the island to destroy Lukon, or at least Portion.


See? there is an alternative to a Lukonian Empire.

[feyeleanor]

Or, a secret society made up of members of all the realms except Lukon will help guide and convince all the realms of the island to destroy Lukon, or at least Portion.


See? there is an alternative to a Lukonian Empire.

There was an alternative. But it failed thanks to mistrust, incompetence, treachery and above all an island-wide obsession with destroying anything alien. Hence the belief that curbing a faith must involve destroying the realms where it's prevalent.

I have my doubts as to whether a Year Zero will save the Colonies, but at least it's an attempt by us to solve the problem rather than giving in and accepting either an administrative reset or the island's complete removal as happened with the war islands.