Author Topic: Vulgar?  (Read 31920 times)

vonGenf

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #45: February 09, 2013, 11:56:57 PM »
But the play is certainly offensive, and along the lines of the stuff Paris wrote for his plays, for which Tom threatened to delete Paris' account if he ever posted it again. The only difference is that Paris used actual character names for his gay porn, as opposed to the transparent euphemisms Bowie is using.

Well, I certainly didn't think it was that offensive. Offensive enough to lose a point of honour, yes, but as I said if something is deserving of being dealt with OOCly then vulgarity is not the right system to use.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Penchant

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #46: February 09, 2013, 11:58:57 PM »
A noble wouldn't write a play, really. And if he did and put his name on it, then what the play says would be seen as directly what the author means. There was no such things as artistic license in the middle ages.
What I mean is that someone who wrote a play with some bad or vulgar things wouldn't be considered bad, vulgar, or dishonorable for it, in this time period.
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Penchant

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #47: February 10, 2013, 12:42:23 AM »
In this particular case, the message was along the lines of: "Please read this, which I wrote: [link]".

It's not really abuse, the text linked was quite long, posting it on the wiki was the right thing to do.
I see it as quite different than that:
Quote
I've gone and done it again, University!

Come see the Flowrestown Theatre Company's newest stage play, "Too Hot to Trot." It is like a deformity you just can't look away from!
“The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him.”
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vonGenf

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #48: February 10, 2013, 08:12:12 AM »
I see it as quite different than that:

And "Too Hot to Trot" links here:

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Ironsides_Family/Bowie/Too_Hot

The wiki states:

Quote
Not much time after, in the Summer of 22 YD, Bowie wrote and directed his most audacious play yet, "Too Hot to Trot"

Therefore he wrote it (this was established in-game before), and the message was for the recipient to read it. I'm pretty certain that's what he was aiming for also.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Penchant

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #49: February 10, 2013, 08:20:43 AM »
And "Too Hot to Trot" links here:

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Ironsides_Family/Bowie/Too_Hot

The wiki states:

Therefore he wrote it (this was established in-game before), and the message was for the recipient to read it. I'm pretty certain that's what he was aiming for also.
You make it sound like he just said read my play with a link, where he said I made a new play, its just great/you should see it and gave a link for reader to be able to read (as they can't actually see his play.)
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Scarlett

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #50: February 11, 2013, 03:08:22 PM »
Most, as in probably slightly more than half of BM characters I run into are routinely vulgar, and I think I have approved all but one 'is this vulgar' request I have ever received, the one exception being a fairly obvious case of what Velax was talking about where it was just revenge. I rarely submit messages as vulgar unless they are really bad, though, because frankly I'd be doing it all day otherwise.

Whether or not the OOC motivation of the person judging the message is revenge, tons of people expose themselves to this all the time, and it is one of the few actual mechanisms of smacking people in the head with a reminder that they are supposed to be medieval nobles and not dudes in a pub playing pool.

The recent Dakra/Caglia post-battle exchange was an absolutely typical example. A high class, e.g. noble medieval insult is not easy for us, and that's not a bad thing - remember how we got rid of the aristocracy in most countries? Even among rich people, actual 'upper class' (as in status/behavior) rather than just 'has money' is pretty rare all over the world. It's why 'Downton Abbey' is so popular: it's something we hardly ever run into!

Finally, remember the currency you're using when you're marked as 'vulgar.' It doesn't injure you. It takes away honor and prestige. Maybe a lot of people think of these things as 'points,' but they're not points, they're honor and prestige. This by no means requires you to play an honorable, prestigious character - in fact one whole character class is dedicated to doing pretty much the reverse.

But if you're going to concern yourself with vulgarity and its effects on your character, then you should avoid lowbrow humor. And plays, by the way - theatre was considered quite vulgar until the late 1500s and even then it was generally still vulgar to actually participate in it as a writer or actor.

Dishman

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #51: February 11, 2013, 06:15:12 PM »
But if you're going to concern yourself with vulgarity and its effects on your character, then you should avoid lowbrow humor. And plays, by the way - theatre was considered quite vulgar until the late 1500s and even then it was generally still vulgar to actually participate in it as a writer or actor.

Nero would disagree.
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vonGenf

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #52: February 11, 2013, 06:31:53 PM »
Nero would disagree.

He is also not medieval.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #53: February 11, 2013, 06:58:30 PM »
Most, as in probably slightly more than half of BM characters I run into are routinely vulgar, and I think I have approved all but one 'is this vulgar' request I have ever received, the one exception being a fairly obvious case of what Velax was talking about where it was just revenge. I rarely submit messages as vulgar unless they are really bad, though, because frankly I'd be doing it all day otherwise.

Whether or not the OOC motivation of the person judging the message is revenge, tons of people expose themselves to this all the time, and it is one of the few actual mechanisms of smacking people in the head with a reminder that they are supposed to be medieval nobles and not dudes in a pub playing pool.

The recent Dakra/Caglia post-battle exchange was an absolutely typical example. A high class, e.g. noble medieval insult is not easy for us, and that's not a bad thing - remember how we got rid of the aristocracy in most countries? Even among rich people, actual 'upper class' (as in status/behavior) rather than just 'has money' is pretty rare all over the world. It's why 'Downton Abbey' is so popular: it's something we hardly ever run into!

Finally, remember the currency you're using when you're marked as 'vulgar.' It doesn't injure you. It takes away honor and prestige. Maybe a lot of people think of these things as 'points,' but they're not points, they're honor and prestige. This by no means requires you to play an honorable, prestigious character - in fact one whole character class is dedicated to doing pretty much the reverse.

But if you're going to concern yourself with vulgarity and its effects on your character, then you should avoid lowbrow humor. And plays, by the way - theatre was considered quite vulgar until the late 1500s and even then it was generally still vulgar to actually participate in it as a writer or actor.

And here I would disagree with you. Not only are you losing honor and prestige, but letters are being sent out to random nobles. Letters that may not otherwise reach other people. Not to mention that I do not see at all the vulgarity that you seem to be seeing. Perhaps your definition of it is much looser than the standard meant for the BM mechanic.

Perth

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #54: February 11, 2013, 07:01:00 PM »
"A tale is but half told when only one person tells it." - The Saga of Grettir the Strong
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Scarlett

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #55: February 11, 2013, 09:20:58 PM »
Quote
but letters are being sent out to random nobles

No, they are being sent to random players - I do not assume that my characters have read the letters in question unless they received them through other avenues.

Quote
Perhaps your definition of it is much looser than the standard meant for the BM mechanic.

My definition of it is based on two things:

#1 (most important) is the in-game text:

 'As a noble, you can expect to be treated with respect and dignity, and expect certain manners from your peers. That does not mean they can not be offensive or they can not backstab you, but it does mean their manner of speech and behaviour should stand above the common, vulgar peasants.'

'You can mark another noble's words as vulgar and unbefitting of his class,'

In other words, we're being asked to set a standard based on what we know of how a 13th or 14th century noble with 'class' and 'dignity' should act. 

#2 is my own sources of information on how medieval nobles with class and dignity behave, of which the top two are 'A History of Deeds Done Across the Sea' by William of Tyre, which covers the early medieval period with a focus on the 1st and 2nd crusades, and then 'A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th century' by Barbara Tuchman for the high/late medieval period. Dress that up with a lot of (well-researched) fiction and semi-fiction and you have my personal standard which nobody but me is obliged to care about.

You might say, and you would be right to say, that plenty of nobles acted badly and did vulgar things. I wouldn't dispute it for a moment. But they'd be thought of (even if only temporarily) as vulgar, and they'd lose some small standing for it. If they also happened to be the baddest ass knight on life or the leader of a big 'ol army, probably this would pale in comparison to the prestige they'd rake in through their achievements.

I'd also distinguish between what nobles said and did in front of other nobles and what they do privately. For instance, nobles acting like punks after a big battle or during a big tournament should (in my book) take a bigger hit, because they are on display. They are effectively 'on' all the time for a few days and being judged by a much larger number of people than are usually around. An Earl who farts and makes crass jokes at his dinner table with only his immediate family and close court advisors won't win any awards but so long as he knew how to act when the King was in town or when he was visiting other courts, probably not as many would care.

Then you have some realms in BM where they explicitly embrace standards of behavior that Western medievals would consider vulgar - namely 'viking' realms. Tough to fit this into the scheme because vikings were much more Dark Ages than Middle Ages and to the extent that you might run into them in the middle ages, like the Byzantine Varangian Guard, they'd become acclimated to working alongside more traditional fancy-pants nobles even if they probably thought they were all sissies.

So context is important, and I'll cop to my standard being more strict than many. That's because most people's standards aren't medieval nobles at all, but 21st century internet game dude standards. Nothing I can do about that but for so long as we're talking an absolutely typical western medieval noble, if my bar is higher than yours (as a player's sense, not individual characters' standards) it's because I probably out-geek you on the subject. Happy to be proven wrong though.

Dante Silverfire

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #56: February 11, 2013, 10:21:42 PM »
No, they are being sent to random players - I do not assume that my characters have read the letters in question unless they received them through other avenues.

Well you are wrong here. Previously in this thread it is confirmed that the letters are sent to random characters, NOT players. This is an IC mechanic, not an OOC one.

As to your definition of vulgarity, do you believe nobles ever leveled insults at others or only ever treated others with full respect? In addition, you CAN insult a noble while still showing them respect. That's the point of letters like mine.
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Sonya

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #57: February 11, 2013, 10:37:14 PM »
Is not necessary Vulgar but for me is unbefitting that a Nobleman speak like that, that more a conversation between troopers and commoners.

In my opinion a nobleman wouldn't talk about commoner women, since they are lower than people, but will talk about other Noblewomen. i am not expert of knowledgeable of the age, but i think Nobles always showed respect for every Noblewomen, that instead about who is uglier, they would compete for the most beautiful of all, so thinking now, the real idea is acceptable if used in a different way.

For Example:
Quote
1. Darka's women are so ugly, that your soldiers have to fight their way to foreign lands in order to find a lay that they can be with while sober.

"The Soldiers of Darka are eager to reach our land, such is the beauty of our women that they fight their way to us."

Something like that, keeping the idea but with a good makeup of the words.


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Dante Silverfire

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #58: February 11, 2013, 10:46:30 PM »
Fair enough, but I was referring to Noblewomen. I always assume that nobles are speaking of other nobles unless noted otherwise. Why would they even mention commoner women?
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Sonya

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Re: Vulgar?
« Reply #59: February 11, 2013, 10:49:20 PM »
Why would they even mention commoner women?

Because the statement as was written originally was OK for them.


:)