Author Topic: Feature Request: Revise Bounty Board Fulfillment Requirements  (Read 8642 times)

Dante Silverfire

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1786
  • Merlin (AT), Brom(DWI), Proslyn(DWI)
    • View Profile
Title: Revise Bounty Board Fulfillment Requirements
Summary: Currently, any serious wound provides the gold off of a bounty board to the person who wounded them. I suggest revising this practice to not pay out bounties unless the wounding lasts long enough to remove someone from their positions.

Details: Don't give out bounties to infiltrators or warriors in battle unless the wounding lasts the 5 days(it is 5 days right?) necessary to remove someone from their positions in a realm.

Benefits: Actually makes the bounty board relevant. Right now the bounty board is irrelevant. The point was you could hurt someone by removing them from their positions. Placing a bounty on their head would make it more likely for infiltrators to attack them, which made their demise more likely. Right now, you can wound someone, pick up a bounty, without actually doing what one of the points of placing the bounty was.

Possible Exploits: None.
---------

Side thoughts: I have yet to see or hear of ANY instance in which a wounding by an infiltrator has actually caused someone to lose their positions within the past 2 years. Is this even possible any more? If it isn't, then perhaps the ability to wound longer times should be made possible. Or more likely on a successful serious wounding. OR reduce the amount of time in which you have to be wounded to lose your positions.

However, those are additional side feature requests to go along with this central one.
"This is the face of the man who has worked long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them."

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
A wound from an infil is no different than a wound in battle, or a duel. I have seen characters lose positions, and even a duchy, twice in the past few months.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Dante Silverfire

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1786
  • Merlin (AT), Brom(DWI), Proslyn(DWI)
    • View Profile
A wound from an infil is no different than a wound in battle, or a duel. I have seen characters lose positions, and even a duchy, twice in the past few months.

From infiltrator wounds? Or other methods?
"This is the face of the man who has worked long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them."

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
From wounds. Not infiltrator wounds, but that's irrelevant. Wounds are wounds are wounds. Wounds from other sources than infils are much more common, therefore much more likely to cause removal from positions.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Dante Silverfire

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1786
  • Merlin (AT), Brom(DWI), Proslyn(DWI)
    • View Profile
It's not irrelevant. The bounty board's primary intent is not for wounds received in battle. While it is reasonably activated should someone be wounded in battle, that is not the reason people would place gold on the bounty board.

Also, it IS relevant if the current code base makes it difficult or nigh impossible for infiltrator wounds to actually result in the loss of positions. It is quite possible that this is true, and that infiltrator wounding code is different than battle wounding code. One may be more likely to lead to loss of a position than another. This could be done for a variety of reasons. Battles are voluntary choices by players, while infiltrators can attack them against their will. Putting in place a modifier so that other players can't stop you from playing "as long" may be something in the code.

In addition, your statement also doesn't address the core concept in my request that a bounty can be filled without a player losing their position.
"This is the face of the man who has worked long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them."

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Indeed... bounties often don't attract infils because they aren't high enough, and most people don't want to invest more because they'll know the odds of the wound both coming from an infil and causing loss of position is minimal.

I, for one, would place much larger bounties if this was changed.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
It's not irrelevant. The bounty board's primary intent is not for wounds received in battle. While it is reasonably activated should someone be wounded in battle, that is not the reason people would place gold on the bounty board.
I know that we've had this discussion before, probably on the old DList. The purpose of the bounty board and assassination is NOT to remove people from positions. If you are using it primarily for that purpose, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Assassinations are intended to wound characters, and knock them out for varying amounts of time. For this purpose, it works. but it is *not* a "Get him out of office" option. If you want to increase the chance that it does so, then that's a different feature request, which I feel pretty confident that Tom will reject.

The reason infils so rarely knock councilors out of office is complicated:

First, because there are relatively few assassinations, as compared to battle or preaching wounds. Both of which , by the way, I have seen remove characters from duchies, government offices, and region lordships, all in the past three to four months.

Second, some continents, notably Atamara, have often had negotiated "No councilor attacks" treaties. And I've seen this on other islands as well. Councilors often to do not march with the army on fight on the front lines, and often have large troops of men. Many realms also take a dim view of allowing assassins to operate out of their realm. (With notable exceptions like Talerium and Perdan.) That makes councilors harder to attack, and harder to successfully attack. Thus, council level assassinations that remove from office would have to be one of the rarest events you can find.

Third, successful infiltrator assaults depend on many factors, such as infiltration skills, sword skills, and just plain dumb luck. No, the actual equation for determining how wounded you are from an infiltrator attack is not the exact same as the equation for wounds from combat or preaching. But once the actual wound level has been determined, all wounds proceed from there down the same path to recovery.

Quote
Also, it IS relevant if the current code base makes it difficult or nigh impossible for infiltrator wounds to actually result in the loss of positions.
I see what you're getting at. But it does not.

Quote
It is quite possible that this is true, and that infiltrator wounding code is different than battle wounding code. One may be more likely to lead to loss of a position than another.
It is not.

Quote
This could be done for a variety of reasons. Battles are voluntary choices by players, while infiltrators can attack them against their will. Putting in place a modifier so that other players can't stop you from playing "as long" may be something in the code.
There is no such modifier. Once the actual severity of the wound has been determined, then the recovery is handled by common code that doesn't consider the source of the wound. In fact, the source of a wound is not even tracked.

Quote
In addition, your statement also doesn't address the core concept in my request that a bounty can be filled without a player losing their position.
That's because the bounty board is not intended to be a "knock these people out of office" board. It is quite possible that people on the bounty board do not even hold a position. You can put someone's name on there, and hope that they will eventually lose their office over it. But if that's what you want, then you take the chance that it just won't happen, and all your money will be wasted.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Perth

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2037
  • Current Character: Kemen
    • View Profile
I agree with the feature request.


I also hear what Indirik is saying, and honestly is just makes me continue to wonder even more what the hell the point of Infiltrators is. You are only reinforcing the already stupid fact that infiltrators do nothing significant. Why do we even have them?
"A tale is but half told when only one person tells it." - The Saga of Grettir the Strong
- Current: Kemen (D'hara) - Past: Kerwin (Eston), Kale (Phantaria, Terran, Melodia)

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
To do infiltrator-type things. If that's not for you, then don't play them.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Dante Silverfire

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1786
  • Merlin (AT), Brom(DWI), Proslyn(DWI)
    • View Profile
Assassinations are intended to wound characters, and knock them out for varying amounts of time.

Fair enough. However, I have frequently seen mentioned that "assassinations" are one way to remove Royal Dukes from office, and that people should be using this option. However, I could not find anyone who could quote a time in which this actually has happened. If this is in fact NOT a potential point of using an assassination then MORE methods need to be implemented to remove characters from royal positions that are ruining the fun for other players.

The reason infils so rarely knock councilors out of office is complicated:

First, because there are relatively few assassinations, as compared to battle or preaching wounds. Both of which , by the way, I have seen remove characters from duchies, government offices, and region lordships, all in the past three to four months.

Second, some continents, notably Atamara, have often had negotiated "No councilor attacks" treaties. And I've seen this on other islands as well. Councilors often to do not march with the army on fight on the front lines, and often have large troops of men. Many realms also take a dim view of allowing assassins to operate out of their realm. (With notable exceptions like Talerium and Perdan.) That makes councilors harder to attack, and harder to successfully attack. Thus, council level assassinations that remove from office would have to be one of the rarest events you can find.

Third, successful infiltrator assaults depend on many factors, such as infiltration skills, sword skills, and just plain dumb luck. No, the actual equation for determining how wounded you are from an infiltrator attack is not the exact same as the equation for wounds from combat or preaching. But once the actual wound level has been determined, all wounds proceed from there down the same path to recovery.

1. I would assert that one reason assassinations are so few is that there is very little benefit to making the assassinations. Players "for the most part" don't care about wounding a character for a few days. People want to use assassinations for one of three reasons: A. Accomplish a strategic objective, B. Remove someone from their positions, C. Take revenge.

A. Accomplish a strategic objective: Such as getting rid of a Duke before an attack on a city, or getting rid of a martial that is leading enemy troops well. Under these circumstances, the bounty board will not be used.

B. Remove someone from their positions: As you have stated this is apparently not the purpose of the bounty board. However, I would argue this is one of the major reasons players would want to utilize an infiltrator for an assassination.

C. Take Revenge: The number of characters actually seeking true RP'ed revenge and using the bounty board are very few in number by my experience. Many players recognize that using the bounty board for this is much less effective than simply offer a public bounty for attacking a player, and giving out the gold personally, or getting revenge in other means. Because the attacks are not likely to remove a noble from position, then they don't even gain anything from their region. Which makes the bounty board "wasted gold" right now.

That's because the bounty board is not intended to be a "knock these people out of office" board. It is quite possible that people on the bounty board do not even hold a position. You can put someone's name on there, and hope that they will eventually lose their office over it. But if that's what you want, then you take the chance that it just won't happen, and all your money will be wasted.

The money is already wasted. I don't think you can find 5 players who honestly feel their gold was well used by placing it on the bounty board. My proposal makes the bounty board actually relevant.

I will however make two new feature requests which tie directly into this issue. They should all be considered together though.
"This is the face of the man who has worked long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them."

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Fair enough. However, I have frequently seen mentioned that "assassinations" are one way to remove Royal Dukes from office, and that people should be using this option.
It is an option. It is possible, but not guaranteed. There are no guarantees in BattleMaster. You pay your money, you take your chances. It may take multiple attempts to make it work, but it can work. And you'd better be a good assassin. No newbie assassin who can't tell a shadow from a sunbeam, and doesn't know to take the dagger from the sheath before stabbing is going to hit a duke hard enough to knock him out. But if you get a world-class swordfighter who is also a ninja-class infiltrator, who buries that dagger deep into that octogenarian duke, he's going down for a LONG time. Probably. Again, no guarantees. But it is worth a shot.

Quote
However, I could not find anyone who could quote a time in which this actually has happened. If this is in fact NOT a potential point of using an assassination then MORE methods need to be implemented to remove characters from royal positions that are ruining the fun for other players.
Secede. Declare war. Conquer!

Damaging? Yes. Fun? Definitely!
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Dante Silverfire

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1786
  • Merlin (AT), Brom(DWI), Proslyn(DWI)
    • View Profile
It is an option. It is possible, but not guaranteed. There are no guarantees in BattleMaster. You pay your money, you take your chances. It may take multiple attempts to make it work, but it can work. And you'd better be a good assassin. No newbie assassin who can't tell a shadow from a sunbeam, and doesn't know to take the dagger from the sheath before stabbing is going to hit a duke hard enough to knock him out. But if you get a world-class swordfighter who is also a ninja-class infiltrator, who buries that dagger deep into that octogenarian duke, he's going down for a LONG time. Probably. Again, no guarantees. But it is worth a shot.

I've tried. It is NOT an option. If not a single player can cite a single instance of this actually occurring in the past year let alone 3-5 years, then it isn't an option. The odds are either not high enough or some factor is off. A 1% chance is not a chance. If you seriously wound a Duke, they should lose their position 100% of the time. Serious wounds aren't easy to pull off, but if you do pull it off they should lose their position. (See new feature request as an addendum to this one)

Secede. Declare war. Conquer!

Damaging? Yes. Fun? Definitely!

I can't secede because my other feature request hasn't been approved yet to actually make secessions more reasonable. I can't declare war, because intra-realm warfare is banned. I can't conquer my own regions.

You're still missing the point though. The infiltrator class is pretty meaningless when their main action doesn't have any real in-game effect.
"This is the face of the man who has worked long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them."

Bedwyr

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1762
  • House Bedwyr
    • View Profile
I agree with the feature request.


I also hear what Indirik is saying, and honestly is just makes me continue to wonder even more what the hell the point of Infiltrators is. You are only reinforcing the already stupid fact that infiltrators do nothing significant. Why do we even have them?

One assassination tipped the scales of the conflict on the Far East that saw Soliferum and Mosesadelphia destroyed, the dominance of the South broken, and Arcaea rise to the top of the heap.  Had it not happened, or had the assassin been even identified, I would guess Arcaea would have been destroyed, and Conan McGahee would probably be the Prime Minister of the Empire of the Sun across the entire continent.

That said, I would like to see infiltrators reworked into something more relevant.  I still think a more spymaster approach would work better.
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here!"

Dante Silverfire

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1786
  • Merlin (AT), Brom(DWI), Proslyn(DWI)
    • View Profile
One assassination tipped the scales of the conflict on the Far East that saw Soliferum and Mosesadelphia destroyed, the dominance of the South broken, and Arcaea rise to the top of the heap.  Had it not happened, or had the assassin been even identified, I would guess Arcaea would have been destroyed, and Conan McGahee would probably be the Prime Minister of the Empire of the Sun across the entire continent.

That said, I would like to see infiltrators reworked into something more relevant.  I still think a more spymaster approach would work better.

Would you mind expanding upon what actually happened? Was it simply the occurrence of an assassination attempt that caused the positive conflict? Or was it some feature related to the function of the assassination that helped the RP? There is a distinct difference there.

I do not deny that infiltrators have a large amount of RP potential, and I love them for that. What I would like to see though is for their abilities to be able to effect things in game more while also ensuring fun is preserved.
"This is the face of the man who has worked long and hard for the good of the people without caring much for any of them."

Dishman

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 513
    • View Profile
Can an infiltrator attack someone who is already wounded? Losing your seat for one wound seems a bit harsh, but if an infiltrator is willing to take the chance 2 or 3 times then why not?
Eoric the Dim (Perdan), Enoch the Bright (Asylon), Emeric the Dark (Obsidian Islands)

Orobos, The Insatiable Snake (Sandalak)