Phoenix Empire

[Penchant]

You see Carelia as a puppet to CE?

[Dante Silverfire]

You see Carelia as a puppet to CE?

Carelia is a puppet of Tara, AND a puppet of their circumstance. They have to appease their neighbors and not make ANY of them angry at this point. Carelia will lose any war it begins, simply because all of its neighbors want a reason to take their last regions and destroy them.

So, yes Carelia is a puppet. I realize you were probably directing this question at Sonya but decided I'd answer anyway.

[Penchant]

Carelia is a puppet of Tara, AND a puppet of their circumstance. They have to appease their neighbors and not make ANY of them angry at this point. Carelia will lose any war it begins, simply because all of its neighbors want a reason to take their last regions and destroy them.

So, yes Carelia is a puppet. I realize you were probably directing this question at Sonya but decided I'd answer anyway.

Actually it was to you though anyone else can feel  free to reply to that too. I disagree partly but not completely. For instance I still don't know why we didn't continue war with Suville. It was all reward, no real risk. I would say we are forced to consider our circumstances of being small when doing things but we are not puppets of circumstance and a puppet of circumstance is the only way I could see Carelia being considered a puppet of Tara.

[Azerax]

You play one of the leaders of Atamara. DO IT!

Cmon.

Sovereign states: CE, Darka, BoM, Coria.

Lyonesse is sovereign because no one gives a rats ass about 6 nobles playing Kingdom.

[Eirikr]

Lyonesse is sovereign because no one gives a rats ass about 6 nobles playing Kingdom.

+1

Though I'm sure it would be argued that they're a puppet of CE for not trying to keep fighting.

[Sonya]

You play one of the leaders of Atamara. DO IT!

Cmon.

Sorry 

My last wall of text was an OOC view of the situation of Atamara, which of course doesn't express my feelings in game.

You have no idea how hard to turn away a Chavlier and Templar of the Sword (Est Sularus Oth Mithas) from it's ideals, but that is larger history unrelated to BM.


So be good people and no poking OK?

[Radigand]

We need to stop using word puppet. I don't think CE's Imperial Senate sits all day deciding what strings to pull. CE senators don't see other realms as puppets. This is getting silly and annoying.

Coria pulled out of the war with Eston. Sure CE wasn't happy, but we endured. ML, supported by CE, isn't fighting Darka nor Barony, and that's OK. Tara is brewing politics in the South while CE is allied with Suville, that's also OK. Talerium doesn't allow CE to cross Darkan borders, that's also fine! You see the trend? CE isn't happy about a lot of things and that's not the end of the world!

You guys have perverted vision of CE. Yes, CE is big, and CE will fight if you pick on it. What did you expect? CE did not declare war on Darka or BoM, CE did not declare war on Carelia or Caergoth. Why fight CE when you can fight someone else? And when you loose, you start pouting, "CE is bully!" And just because a circumstance makes you friendly towards CE, it doesn't mean you are CE's puppet. With the same logic I can call Darka to be Barony's puppet, and that's just silly.

[Munro]

Coria pulled out of the war with Eston. Sure CE wasn't happy, but we endured.

You're kidding right? Coria was being RAPED by the North, barely able to defend itself because of Tara and CE could offer no support to us due to their own problems. We signed an AMAZING peace deal with Eston which prevented the North using Coria for Military Access to the CE (we remained a buffer) and you claim CE wasn't happy with that!?

I know CE was more than happy with that because I was Consul at the time. I explicitly discussed it with the PM of CE at the time (Jason?), Aldarion and Ottar all of whom fully supported the decision of Coria. It was stated by myself that Coria risked destruction but would fight on if our allies *really* wanted us to, and I was encouraged to sign peace due to the fact it ensured them a buffer!

[Dante Silverfire]

We need to stop using word puppet. I don't think CE's Imperial Senate sits all day deciding what strings to pull. CE senators don't see other realms as puppets. This is getting silly and annoying.

Coria pulled out of the war with Eston. Sure CE wasn't happy, but we endured. ML, supported by CE, isn't fighting Darka nor Barony, and that's OK. Tara is brewing politics in the South while CE is allied with Suville, that's also OK. Talerium doesn't allow CE to cross Darkan borders, that's also fine! You see the trend? CE isn't happy about a lot of things and that's not the end of the world!

You guys have perverted vision of CE. Yes, CE is big, and CE will fight if you pick on it. What did you expect? CE did not declare war on Darka or BoM, CE did not declare war on Carelia or Caergoth. Why fight CE when you can fight someone else? And when you loose, you start pouting, "CE is bully!" And just because a circumstance makes you friendly towards CE, it doesn't mean you are CE's puppet. With the same logic I can call Darka to be Barony's puppet, and that's just silly.

Your statements show you really don't understand CE and its allies.

"Coria pulled out of the war with Eston." NO, we did not. This is simply false. Coria SURRENDERED to Eston. We were beaten. Darkan troops were sitting in our capital looting, and we surrendered. Now, *I* helped Coria negotiate a favorable peace treaty with Eston. But, Coria surrendered, we did not "pull out of the war."

"Why fight CE when you can fight someone else?" Please name a single realm that Coria or any other CE ally is allowed to fight that CE isn't themselves fighting and in which CE will not do one of the following: 1. Interfere politically or militarily, 2. Prevent by stating they will defend against aggressors?

CE interferes in wars. Namely because people like to fight. So they find reasons to join wars which aren't their business. They have done it time and time again. I was in the CE Senate when we figured out how to do just that in the south.

Want to know the reason that CE doesn't do anything about Talerium's treaty with Darka? Because if they did, CE would die. Want to know the reason that CE doesn't do anything about Tara ruining their northern war plans by bickering in the south? Because if they did CE would die.

[Munro]

Now, *I* helped Coria negotiate a favorable peace treaty with Eston. But, Coria surrendered, we did not "pull out of the war.

Perhaps Perth can clear this up, as I'm pretty sure Kerwin and Saeculo were the ones discussing the peace treaty and the advantages etc. Maybe Merlin had an influence, but I was under the impression that it was Kerwin and Saeculo who made it happen.

[Radigand]

Want to know the reason that CE doesn't do anything about Talerium's treaty with Darka? Because if they did, CE would die. Want to know the reason that CE doesn't do anything about Tara ruining their northern war plans by bickering in the south? Because if they did CE would die.

Are you calling CE Talerium's and Tara's puppet? I don't. Puppet term is just silly. CE plays politics like the rest of Atamara.

[Perth]

Perhaps Perth can clear this up, as I'm pretty sure Kerwin and Saeculo were the ones discussing the peace treaty and the advantages etc. Maybe Merlin had an influence, but I was under the impression that it was Kerwin and Saeculo who made it happen.

It was a confusing and fast moving period right after Kerwin came onto the throne. Merlin came to Anost to meet with Kerwin to discuss the peace deal, which allowed the Darkans to slip into the city and sack it since Merlin wasn't there to pull up a bunch of militia.

Merlin was upset about that, I remember. Regardless, it helped ensure Coria wanted to sign peace with Eston. Kerwin signed peace with Coria because 1) it was part of his overall goals to ultimately create a new powerful alliance between Coria and Eston and 2) because he was foolishly unaware of Darka's extreme unwillingness to use the Wester/Talerium theatre to prosecute the war. Kerwin was convinced that the war to win the war was through Talerium, not Coria and Tara. Kerwin wanted to take the war directly to CE/Eaglin, not waste time trying to slog through Coria and northern Tara. Ultimately, we all know how those plans worked out.

[Dante Silverfire]

Perhaps Perth can clear this up, as I'm pretty sure Kerwin and Saeculo were the ones discussing the peace treaty and the advantages etc. Maybe Merlin had an influence, but I was under the impression that it was Kerwin and Saeculo who made it happen.

I said I helped, not that I signed it. That was certainly Saeculo.

Merlin was very active in foreign politics at the time and was busy befriending Kerwin so that Coria would have an ally and friend there.

Merlin did NOT write that treaty alone, but he helped influence terms.

[Azerax]

+1

Though I'm sure it would be argued that they're a puppet of CE for not trying to keep fighting.

Are you kidding?  We barely have 1200 CS against their 60k+?  Heck, I think we will be the first kingdom to surrender unconditionally to (rogue) if monsters and undead appear in the same region.

[Eirikr]

Are you kidding?  We barely have 1200 CS against their 60k+?  Heck, I think we will be the first kingdom to surrender unconditionally to (rogue) if monsters and undead appear in the same region.

Hey, it's not my argument, I just know someone would make it. After all, Darka's looking to go out to the last man. I doubt it'll happen, but who knows.

I did get a chuckle out of the NPC forces, though.