Player targetted abuse for in-game actions

[Geronus]

I suspect, though Silverfire will have to clarify, that the character Jason Elegant was taking quoted messages of Merlin's out of context and sending them (with condemnation attached) to anyone who would listen. Ruler's channel, League of the Eagle, private individuals, etc. Same messages, multiple places, forcing Merlin to reply to all of those different places as well if he wanted to defend himself. I gather he was also sending a lot of these messages in general. Basically, it seems he's spent the last week devoting a lot of time to tearing down Merlin and trying to overwhelm him with a tide of so many accusations and damning misquotes spread to so many different people that Merlin couldn't possibly defend himself against all of them. Sort of the "If you repeat a lie enough times it becomes true" sort of strategy, though it wasn't exactly all lies. Many of the quotes used were true quotes, just taken out of context. Together they were used to construct a certain narrative about Merlin that Jason then kept hammering away at, repeating it as often as he could to as many people as he could. It worked rather well in combination with the resistance to Merlin inside Coria.

[Chenier]

I suspect, though Silverfire will have to clarify, that the character Jason Elegant was taking quoted messages of Merlin's out of context and sending them (with condemnation attached) to anyone who would listen. Ruler's channel, League of the Eagle, private individuals, etc. Same messages, multiple places, forcing Merlin to reply to all of those different places as well if he wanted to defend himself. I gather he was also sending a lot of these messages in general. Basically, it seems he's spent the last week devoting a lot of time to tearing down Merlin and trying to overwhelm him with a tide of so many accusations and damning misquotes spread to so many different people that Merlin couldn't possibly defend himself against all of them. Sort of the "If you repeat a lie enough times it becomes true" sort of strategy, though it wasn't exactly all lies. Many of the quotes used were true quotes, just taken out of context. Together they were used to construct a certain narrative about Merlin that Jason then kept hammering away at, repeating it as often as he could to as many people as he could. It worked rather well in combination with the resistance to Merlin inside Coria.

In other words, what enemies in BM pretty much do all of the time?

[jaune]

Uh... I dont remember to seen this scale hunt down of character ever. There has been pretty damn heated relations between characters before... but i dont remember seeing this scale and style of bombarding before. Example Abington vs. CE & boys war... Gaiuhu(?) or what he was... player of that character didnt get under such treat, and he literally destroyed his own realm while pissing off rest of the continent.

I really dont know if there is anything wrong on it, it just feels a bit bad how all ended... especially that forum part when it turns to player vs. player thing instead of char vs. char.

[Anaris]

It is very difficult, absent direct OOC attacks, to determine when IC harassment of a character (which is fine) turns into OOC harassment of a player (which is bad). Have other characters of the Silverfire family been harassed? Have other characters of the Elegant family taken part in the harassment?

BattleMaster is a PvP game. It is quite possible, even probable, that someone will have their feelings hurt, or piss off another player. That's in the nature of playing a PvP game. I'm not sure if the Magistrates can determine when things have gone too far without some kind of "smoking gun", when they can't have access to the entire message store to read the full scope of things and see what's been happening.

It seems to me that the "smoking gun" is the messages that Elegant has posted on the forum.

[Elegant]

Well...I have returned from office and I see this long thread. I have not read it fully, but I will read it after I make my dinner. But, please wait for me till weekend as I will get time on weekend to prepare my defense.

Till then, I can say that I was always IC in game. I did not copy same things over and over again. It were always different arguments or something additional or new proofs. Your character Merlin could not bear the burden of shame, so you come here and complain? That was not spam. (however, there was one common line in some of the messages, because that one line could destroy several arguments put forth by Merlin, but I assure you that there was no way 50 such message). I invite Tom or any top admin to access my account through their database and read them.

If you don't like my forum posts, then maybe you should tell me why did you post my message for elders only in forum?  I did not like it when my highly secure message to elders was posted in forums. It was then I decided to be active on forums and see what else you were doing and reply suitably, if needed. You can't keep offending people and expect them to be silent. You brought IG things in OCC.

Finally, I would add that you have many forum friends and even have many admin/mod friends. There are also some people who don't like me due their own reasons.  So, yes, you can defeat me by organizing things like this. Feel free to do it and satisfy your ego.

[Anaris]

Finally, I would add that you have many forum friends and even have many admin/mod friends. There are also some people who don't like me due their own reasons.  So, yes, you can defeat me by organizing things like this. Feel free to do it and satisfy your ego.

Please do not resort to accusations of corruption. They are a deep insult to the mods, devs, and Magistrates.

This case, as with all cases, will be judged on its merits. Not because of who likes whom. Insults like this just make you look bad.

[Dante Silverfire]

It is very difficult, absent direct OOC attacks, to determine when IC harassment of a character (which is fine) turns into OOC harassment of a player (which is bad). Have other characters of the Silverfire family been harassed? Have other characters of the Elegant family taken part in the harassment?

No other characters of the Silverfire have been harassed, and no other characters of the Elegant family have taken part.

I'm not sure if the Magistrates can determine when things have gone too far without some kind of "smoking gun", when they can't have access to the entire message store to read the full scope of things and see what's been happening.

The "smoking gun" is the forum posts in the two threads which I have linked. On their own, the messages in game would just be the worst that I've ever seen for completely trying to destroy anyone that I've ever seen. However, it was in relation to these messages in-game combined with the forum posts which made it clear (to me at least) that Elegant's player had linked all of the actions of my character to myself as a player, and was thus using his in-game character's higher influence of ruler of the strongest realm to just completely barrage and abuse my character through multiple channels with repeated messages which all said pretty much the same thing. Most of them involved continue quotes straight from in-game letters sent to radically different characters, and pulling them completely out of context, while sending them over and over again. I don't consider that such treatment is how you'd play a board game between friends.

I couldn't try to even discuss them, as any attempt to was essentially "shouted down" by another message which said the same thing. Example: If I said it was a forgery in the letter that said Merlin was trying to "steal duchies from CE", he'd simply respond with another letter saying I couldn't be trusted because I planned to "steal duchies from CE." Of which was repeated on multiple occasions in the multiple channels.

I can provide the Magistrates with html downloads of my entire message cache from the past 30 days for both sent and received if that will accommodate a better determination. I can't copy/paste the entire conversation regarding this event because it involves literally hundreds of messages in a week.

I suspect, though Silverfire will have to clarify, that the character Jason Elegant was taking quoted messages of Merlin's out of context and sending them (with condemnation attached) to anyone who would listen. Ruler's channel, League of the Eagle, private individuals, etc. Same messages, multiple places, forcing Merlin to reply to all of those different places as well if he wanted to defend himself. I gather he was also sending a lot of these messages in general. Basically, it seems he's spent the last week devoting a lot of time to tearing down Merlin and trying to overwhelm him with a tide of so many accusations and damning misquotes spread to so many different people that Merlin couldn't possibly defend himself against all of them. Sort of the "If you repeat a lie enough times it becomes true" sort of strategy, though it wasn't exactly all lies. Many of the quotes used were true quotes, just taken out of context. Together they were used to construct a certain narrative about Merlin that Jason then kept hammering away at, repeating it as often as he could to as many people as he could. It worked rather well in combination with the resistance to Merlin inside Coria.

It seems to me that the "smoking gun" is the messages that Elegant has posted on the forum.

These two quotes pretty clearly articulate what I've been trying to say.

If you don't like my forum posts, then maybe you should tell me why did you post my message for elders only in forum?  I did not like it when my highly secure message to elders was posted in forums. It was then I decided to be active on forums and see what else you were doing and reply suitably, if needed. You can't keep offending people and expect them to be silent. You brought IG things in OCC.

I didn't bring anything IG to OOC. I did post a single letter that you sent to the "elders" in the forum, but the letter wasn't addressed to the elders but to my character directly AND I didn't post it to show anything about you or your character. The letter was used only as a reference for what I was responding to. I wanted to post my response letter to the forum to clarify a point that I was trying to make regarding the current state of Atamara as a whole. (Note to Magistrates: This occurred on page 6 of the "Phoenix Empire" thread which I created in the Atamara forum. link: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3874.75.html) I would also like to note, that in no way did you ever state that you disliked the posting of that letter either in that thread or anywhere else I've seen before now. You never even posted in that thread after that posting.  I'd have gladly removed it, if you felt it wasn't acceptable. But again, I only used your posted letter (which was directed only at me) to give a background for my personal response.

[^ban^]

The Magistrates don't police character actions, nor forum actions.

Although you're technically correct that we do not police things (we are a reactive judicial system, requiring complaints before acting), players are still bound by the social contract during all interaction within and outside of the game. As the social contract is within the purview of the Magistrates, we do in fact have the authority to act on behavior on the forums.

[vonGenf]

(Note to Magistrates: This occurred on page 6 of the "Phoenix Empire" thread which I created in the Atamara forum. link: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3874.75.html)

Sorry, this is an out-of-topic pet peeve: "Page x of a thread" is not a meaningful measure. On my account the thread you point at only has three pages. It depends on how many post per page you show.

[Indirik]

Sorry, this is an out-of-topic pet peeve: "Page x of a thread" is not a meaningful measure. On my account the thread you point at only has three pages. It depends on how many post per page you show.

It has many, many more pages on a mobile device using the WAP2 version of the forum.

Regardless, here is a link to the specific message:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3874.msg95486.html#msg95486

[Anaris]

Sorry, this is an out-of-topic pet peeve: "Page x of a thread" is not a meaningful measure. On my account the thread you point at only has three pages. It depends on how many post per page you show.

Indeed: mine shows as on page 6, but that's because I haven't messed with the defaults.

However, you can link directly to a specific post. The title/subject of every forum post is a link to that post specifically within the thread, and can be copied in all the usual ways.

[Dante Silverfire]

I wasn't aware of that. Both my mobile and computer view with the same page lengths.

Anywhere, then here is a link to the "beginning" as I stated in OP for one of the other threads (said pg 17 then)

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3740.msg95711.html#msg95711
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[Geronus]

In other words, what enemies in BM pretty much do all of the time?

Yes.

On their own, the messages in game would just be the worst that I've ever seen for completely trying to destroy anyone that I've ever seen. However, it was in relation to these messages in-game combined with the forum posts which made it clear (to me at least) that Elegant's player had linked all of the actions of my character to myself as a player, and was thus using his in-game character's higher influence of ruler of the strongest realm to just completely barrage and abuse my character through multiple channels with repeated messages which all said pretty much the same thing. Most of them involved continue quotes straight from in-game letters sent to radically different characters, and pulling them completely out of context, while sending them over and over again. I don't consider that such treatment is how you'd play a board game between friends.

As Indirik pointed out, this is a PvP game. What the character Jason did in the game doesn't really cross any lines. Yes, he certainly did go all out to try to destroy Merlin, but from an IC perspective that's certainly a justifiable response to what Merlin was doing, particularly in the context of other characters intentionally working to undermine Merlin by feeding Jason with selective quotes and even outright forgeries that played to Jason's worst fears about Merlin's intentions. Since all of the messages were IC and contextual, I just don't think that they can really be labeled inappropriate from the point of view of the Social Contract. In the end everything that happened is a perfectly understandable result of Merlin's actions from an IC perspective.

While I do have some concerns about the forum posts, I also think that you're perhaps taking all this a little too personally. I recognize that it can be hard not to under the circumstances, but try to remember that this is a game that you're supposed to enjoy. Winning and losing is part of it. If you're not enjoying it anymore, for any reason, then I highly recommend taking a step back and giving yourself some time to de-stress. Battlemaster shouldn't be a chore. When it got to that point for me, I paused all my characters and stopped playing for a few months. Now I'm back, and enjoying it much more than I was before I took a break. For you the solution might be different, but either way I strongly suggest you evaluate what you can do to make yourself feel better as a player.

[Geronus]

If you don't like my forum posts, then maybe you should tell me why did you post my message for elders only in forum?  I did not like it when my highly secure message to elders was posted in forums. It was then I decided to be active on forums and see what else you were doing and reply suitably, if needed. You can't keep offending people and expect them to be silent. You brought IG things in OCC.

As far as I can tell, Silverfire's forum posts up to this point were generally on-topic, OOC reflections on IG events from his perspective as a player. That is, to some extent, what the forums are for, and anyone is free to disagree with his statements on their merits. I personally have sparred with Silverfire many times on the forum over our interpretations of things that happened in the game (see the multiple Hammarsett v. Coria arguments in the Current War thread). What I have not done is accused him of lying.

I can understand being upset that someone would post a private IG letter to an OOC forum, particularly one that sensitive, but in that case the proper response is to politely ask for the offending player to remove it (and for an apology if you're truly upset about it). What's not OK is making personal attacks against that player and questioning his intentions in a derogatory manner. I get that there's a serious IC dispute; under no circumstances is it OK to begin pursuing that dispute OOC. See my last post about taking things a little too personally.

[Elegant]

Okay...I have read much of the thread. Here is what I have to say:

1. I am assured by on person that case will be decided on merit, So, I have decided to fight it on weekend (not much time to write in week days). Earlier, I thought I would be left alone because he has so many friends and I don't know much about anyone posting in this thread. Sorry for my stupid notions. My apologies to the mods/admins.

2. Merlin's player is concerned that I, as a player of Jason, am doing something against him due to what happened inside game. I have to say that I don't even know you and you think I am crazy that I will come to your house shouting that why did you betray me? That will put serious questions on my sanity. I don't make enemies over internet. You have noting to fear.

3. Earlier, I said that it's all personal. If you are hurt by this, then you can tell mods to delete that post. I am sorry ;( If you feel that all my replies are offending, then you may ask the mods to take them down, they have my consent. Do whatever and feel good.

5. What do you want from me or what do you want to be done with me?