Special Forces, underpowered?

[Silverfire]

This makes me extremely interested in trying to document the SF in Coria, which are 95/95. That should prove interesting I believe... Maybe I'll spend some time on it soon.

[LilWolf]

I'd really appreciate any documented occurrences of these "special abilities".  8)

Well, here's one example of the silly things they do: http://www.lilwolf.biz/bm/monster_battle_apr26.html

Troop setting for me was front, defensive, line. The SF is range 4 so the monsters were within their range and they chose to move forward. What any sensible unit would have done is a) fire at the monsters b) hold their position and wait for a better shot. Moving forward is just utterly silly since it means you'll get to close combat faster and have less time to do ranged damage. You'll note the actual archer unit did the sensible thing and just fired at the monsters when they were at the edge of their range and hoped for at least a few hits.

I'd understand the unit moving forward if they were set aggressive or even normal, but not while defensive.

[De-Legro]

Well, here's one example of the silly things they do: http://www.lilwolf.biz/bm/monster_battle_apr26.html

Troop setting for me was front, defensive, line. The SF is range 4 so the monsters were within their range and they chose to move forward. What any sensible unit would have done is a) fire at the monsters b) hold their position and wait for a better shot. Moving forward is just utterly silly since it means you'll get to close combat faster and have less time to do ranged damage. You'll note the actual archer unit did the sensible thing and just fired at the monsters when they were at the edge of their range and hoped for at least a few hits.

I'd understand the unit moving forward if they were set aggressive or even normal, but not while defensive.

That isn't a SF problem. The problem here is that ranged SF seem to use Mixed Infantry AI

[Anaris]

That isn't a SF problem. The problem here is that ranged SF seem to use Mixed Infantry AI

This is correct.  All unit types with ranged attacks that are not archers use the same AI.

And it needs work ;)

[johnny Hammarberg]

I know that the Barony of Makar has two special forces. One has a cavalry charge, so I guess they are special cavalry, and the other...ah, I forget. I think the Mystic Monks may have an artillery feature that does extra damage to fortifications, maybe.

The Barony has in fact three special forces and I know about the two oldest ones and have a pretty good knowledge about their special powers.

Icegate has two centers, Behexed artillery and Mystic monks.
Fiddleford has a new center with for me unknown powers.

Mystic monks are pure melee with increased attack values and  what looks like a charge  they are hard to wipe as well, their special perk is that they do not get penalties when scaling high walls and siege engines only slows them down  ;D

Behexed Artillery is mixed infantry with a range of 5 rows, they sometimes do devastating damage on range but always hit hard in melee.


My experiment with mixing the two above has showed some interesting results with the range dropping from 5  rows to 1 row but they still seam to keep their original strengths. Are we really supposed to be able to mix different kind of sf forces?

For those of you who doesnt know I can tell you that both centers produce troops with 99/99 in armour/weapons but they require a small fortune from the recruiting viking so its not for the common noble. The effects the troops have on the battlefield seam to be heavily depending on their position and stance...

[Foundation]

Battle reports and solid proof rather than speculation and experience would be greatly appreciated.

[egamma]

Battle reports and solid proof rather than speculation and experience would be greatly appreciated.

You realize you're asking, "please show me how I can make the SF of Makar a waste of money by circumventing their abilities?"

At least, that's how I would treat this if I was in CE.

[Anaris]

You realize you're asking, "please show me how I can make the SF of Makar a waste of money by circumventing their abilities?"

At least, that's how I would treat this if I was in CE.

Um, no. Please don't be so insulting.

We are asking, OOC, for people to being cataloguing and proving the various special abilities of special forces.  That will allow us to make a comprehensive list of these special abilities, and understand how best to use them, in all cases.

If you choose not to participate, that only means that your chosen special forces center will not be represented, and if there are any particular secrets to its special abilities, they will remain hidden, unusable by any but those lucky few who just happen to stumble upon them.

[Foundation]

You realize you're asking, "please show me how I can make the SF of Makar a waste of money by circumventing their abilities?"

At least, that's how I would treat this if I was in CE.

Note that I don't play on Atamara at all. :)

[fodder]

... how exactly do you tell a sf doing something extraordinary if it's something mundane (which sounds rather contradictory) like extra dmg from doing a normal action?

things like climbing walls are simple.. it's either special.. or bugged.

[Geronus]

... how exactly do you tell a sf doing something extraordinary if it's something mundane (which sounds rather contradictory) like extra dmg from doing a normal action?

things like climbing walls are simple.. it's either special.. or bugged.

Sometimes you just notice odd patterns. Some of the SF in Astrum for example appear to have the afore-mentioned cavalry charge ability. They hit like a ton of bricks in the first round of melee, but their damage output drops sharply thereafter, something like a 40-60% drop if I remember - and such a steep drop cannot be explained by casualties. You tend to notice that kind of thing when it happens to your unit.

[^ban^]

...because people never imagine patterns, right? Especially when they aren't actually keeping data...

[Geronus]

...because people never imagine patterns, right? Especially when they aren't actually keeping data...

No need to be snippy here. I was not offering hard evidence. I was simply using an anecdote to point out that the way you can determine whether your unit is doing something special is to look for unusual patterns. Yes, if you want hard evidence you need empirical data to analyze for those patterns. For those of us who aren't actively collecting mountains of battle reports for this purpose, a hunch will have to suffice. You lead a unit for long enough, you tend to pick up on patterns, real or imagined.

[LilWolf]

What I find most annoying is that you have to spend an huge amount of time and effort to find out what makes your special forces special. It's something very few people are willing to do and that just leaves special forces as an expensive curiosity.

The game code clearly knows how the unit is special so it's beyond me why the game can't just say to the units owner what the forces can do. Finding out how you make the unit do their special thing would probably be challenge enough.

But alas, the games obsessive love for secrecy will probably win over this sentiment.

[Shizzle]

I don't think it should be made publicly available. It could spread to your realm's enemies, or to rivals within your realm?