The War of Ice and Sun

[Noldorin]

Fingolfin might be a bit deluded by the friendship be built with Fronen, which (as it seems) has been reduced much more than he thinks with the many changes of ruler down there. IG (from Fingolfins point of view) there was never any real risks with Fronen joining Melhed, due to OG and the (believed) Thalmarkin-Fronen relations.

But still, if Fronen had wished to try something, that would have been a huge risk as well. To ask OG to help or at least not attack Fronen if Fronen attacked Thalmarkin, might have been enough to get OG against them (Fronen). Also, if Thalmarkin had found out about it (which is quite likely if OG refuses Fronens request), Thalmarkin would attack Fronen as soon as the Melhed-war was over.

(now that was a ridiculously written paragraph, but hope you understand it :p)

All in all, seems Fingolfin is sitting on higher horses than he ought to, but then again its deserved!

[Telrunya]

Well, if Thalmarkin had just accepted Fronen aid there wouldn't have been a problem! While Richard holds respect for King Fingolfin and has no ill will against Thalmarkin, this all went on under 'Well, they refused our aid and don't really care about us apparently'. Keep in mind that Richard is a relative new Noble in Beluaterra and doesn't have much knowledge about the whole past political scene. He hailed from Old Grehk, and believed the Alliance with them was the highest priority. But Richard believed to have pretty good relations with Old Grehk, he was convinced he could discuss the subject in private. Thalmarkin would have never heard about it unless Old Grehk would give Fronen some sort of protection in his eyes. And, of course, he wouldn't simply have approached Old Grehk by directly asking them the question, he knew it was a sensitive issue. And if Old Grehk rather wanted to attack Melhed instead (For Richard, it would have been most sweet to do WHILE the war was going on, just to annoy Thalmarkin. He believed you guys deserved a poke back for poking by refusing Fronen's aid, he had to push the whole thing through the Senate after all!), it never would have been openly discussed.

Keep in mind that this would never have happened if Melhed couldn't hold their own against Thalmarkin anyway. Richard was in no way willing to burn any bridges over this (Unless it involved sticking out his tongue to Thalmarkin, Richard wouldn't dare do anything more then that!), especially not with Old Grehk.

[Noldorin]

And also, some things ought to be said for Froepnu.

The idea from the start was to make this a 1 vs 1 war, for both IG and ooc reasons (being the Thalmarkian pride/eager to prove their superiority & for the ooc fun of an even war). The goal was also to create Ar Agyr for Jaune.

There were however also a secondary goal in giving (for free, without Fronen aiding) Froepnu to Fronen (+ som rurals), to further strengthen the bonds between Thalmarkin and Fronen. This would also even out the odds between Ar Agyr and Melhed which would consist of one duchy each. This would obviously not be accepted by Melhed and it would mean fighting until we have captured both Agyr and Froepnu, which would be very difficult even if we had practically won the war. At least it would have taken a long time.

As it turned out, with Melheds surrender, the easy thing was just to accept their surrender and forget about Froepnu and Fronen. I have no doubt this will come back and bite us in the ass sooner or later, either by a stronger Melhed or a Fronen who are not as happy as they could have been. But well, thats just more chances of fun future wars! :p

Another possibility would have been to kill Melhed, give Agyr and Mhed to Ar Agyr and Froepnu to Fronen. Fingolfin and at least Lorgan had a very strong alliance against this course of action, since we wanted Melhed to live. I think close to all other Thalmarkian nobles disagreed, but thats life :p

[Noldorin]

Well, if Thalmarkin had just accepted Fronen aid there wouldn't have been a problem! While Richard holds respect for King Fingolfin and has no ill will against Thalmarkin, this all went on under 'Well, they refused our aid and don't really care about us apparently'. Keep in mind that Richard is a relative new Noble in Beluaterra and doesn't have much knowledge about the whole past political scene. He hailed from Old Grehk, and believed the Alliance with them was the highest priority. But Richard believed to have pretty good relations with Old Grehk, he was convinced he could discuss the subject in private. Thalmarkin would have never heard about it unless Old Grehk would give Fronen some sort of protection in his eyes. And, of course, he wouldn't simply have approached Old Grehk by directly asking them the question, he knew it was a sensitive issue. And if Old Grehk rather wanted to attack Melhed instead (For Richard, it would have been most sweet to do WHILE the war was going on, just to annoy Thalmarkin. He believed you guys deserved a poke back for poking by refusing Fronen's aid, he had to push the whole thing through the Senate after all!), it never would have been openly discussed.

Hm, I had a feeling it would look like this, but didnt know people would take it so hard We quite harshly refused the aid of Sint, OG and Fronen, though with nice words...

Its not really possible for me to know what the relations are between other rulers and since the war with Melhed started it has been quite silent on the Ruler-discussions (for Thalmarkins part at least). I am quite sure that if Fronen had mentioned anything about such actions some 6 months ago Turner would have let me know. I like to think he still would have, but things might have changed... Not easy to know!

Keep in mind that this would never have happened if Melhed couldn't hold their own against Thalmarkin anyway. Richard was in no way willing to burn any bridges over this (Unless it involved sticking out his tongue to Thalmarkin, Richard wouldn't dare do anything more then that!), especially not with Old Grehk.

Hm this is not good! Thalmarkin is supposed to be the one people wants to keep on good terms with! :p

[Telrunya]

If Thalmarkin had give Fronepu, Richard would have been sold for sure. The issue was that Thalmarkin refused aid and therefore blocked Fronen, which wasn't nice from Richard's perspective (Though OOC, yeah, it was best to not give Thalmarkin even more aid, not that Fronen's military was considered to be very good at that point). He still doesn't hold any ill will against Thalmarkin throughout this (I believe he even stated that to Melhed), he just wanted to poke them back for blocking him and then forget about it all (Yeah, that would have worked well, I know).

And now we have Melhed moving their Capital to Fronepu and right next to Fronen. Richard wasn't happy with it.

Richard will be stepping down in a day or two though, which is why I'm openly telling this all. I wonder where Fronen will go under new leadership. Richard really just mostly did what he wanted to do and got Fronen to follow him. I believe the Senate only once spoke against Richard, and that was on Sigmund Baranof. There'll be a new Fronen when a new Doge is elected.

I am quite sure that if Fronen had mentioned anything about such actions some 6 months ago Turner would have let me know.

Richard doesn't really know the extent of the Thalmarkin - Old Grehk relations. But as an ex-Old Grehkian, he believed relations between Old Grehk and him were special and on another level and that he therefore could have gotten away with feeling them carefully on the subject without alerting Thalmarkin about it (He wouldn't have mentioned anything against Thalmarkin directly right away anyway).

[Noldorin]

Richard will be stepping down in a day or two though, which is why I'm openly telling this all. I wonder where Fronen will go under new leadership. Richard really just mostly did what he wanted to do and got Fronen to follow him. I believe the Senate only once spoke against Richard, and that was on Sigmund Baranof. There'll be a new Fronen when a new Doge is elected.

Crap... inconsistency sucks for relations :p I suppose that's what happens with some realms. Fingolfin has been King for almost 3 ooc years now. Turner has been king/emperor for 2-2,5 years. Now thats consistency!

[Sypher]

Helps that Richard has had a supportive Duke.   

Fronen would have a shorter memory of things than some realms...
There is only one other character who has been in Fronen longer than my character (Duke Yorick) and I joined Fronen after Mesh was destroyed in the 4th invasion. The majority have been in realm for less than a RL-year.

[Telrunya]

Helps that Richard has had a supportive Duke.   

That is very true! That helped Richard a lot and he knows it. Why he wanted to add in the Constitution, as it allowed him to overrule the Senate through the Dukes. I just never got to it :/

[Terises Jr.]

Helps that Richard has had a supportive Duke.   

Fronen would have a shorter memory of things than some realms...
There is only one other character who has been in Fronen longer than my character (Duke Yorick) and I joined Fronen after Mesh was destroyed in the 4th invasion. The majority have been in realm for less than a RL-year.

So, Duke Yorick will replace Doge Richard as the new Doge of Fronen?

[Turner]

Crap... inconsistency sucks for relations :p I suppose that's what happens with some realms. Fingolfin has been King for almost 3 ooc years now. Turner has been king/emperor for 2-2,5 years. Now thats consistency!

WOW its been that long already? 

So Michael and Fingolfin are the oldies of the rulers on BT, geez

[Tandaros]

Crap... inconsistency sucks for relations :p I suppose that's what happens with some realms. Fingolfin has been King for almost 3 ooc years now. Turner has been king/emperor for 2-2,5 years. Now thats consistency!

Silly republics, master plans are for monarchs! 

[Miriam Ics]

We have a 100% King, a 100% Duke, and a 100% Priest. That's is consistency
Plus the most honored player in all BM

[Eduardo Almighty]

Plus the most honored player in all BM

Injustice!!!! And about me? 
Yeux is out for a month and he's still causing problems, as it seems. I did it well with Kalixta and May.

[JeVondair]

Injustice!!!! And about me? 
Yeux is out for a month and he's still causing problems, as it seems. I did it well with Kalixta and May.

 

Remembers Kalixta's full name, forgets his wife's...

[Turner]

Richard will be stepping down in a day or two though, which is why I'm openly telling this all. I wonder where Fronen will go under new leadership. Richard really just mostly did what he wanted to do and got Fronen to follow him. I believe the Senate only once spoke against Richard, and that was on Sigmund Baranof. There'll be a new Fronen when a new Doge is elected.

I forgot to ask, why is Richard leaving??

I hope the new Doge whoever is elected will be as intelligent and level headed as Richard is