Mendicant Cheating

[Tom]

Well the simplest solution I see is disabling family gold to stop people from funnelling gold.

Here's a better idea: Just disable characters altogether. Only the map to look at! Absolutely no cheating after that, guaranteed! ;-)

[Tom]

Um, what? It totally is.

We can't prohibit things that we have no means of tracking or disabling. That'd just be crazy.

[Vellos]

We can't prohibit things that we have no means of tracking or disabling. That'd just be crazy.

Um, strategic secessions?

There are many things we prohibit without an ability to track or disable.

Now, sure there's no foul when you send orders IC, and you maybe repost them to IRC. Sure, whatever. But actually using OOC means to supplant IC means

100% pure and simple cheating. It doesn't matter if we can't track it: it's still cheating. And, if by some means we happen to hear about it, we should respond to it as such. Heck, I think we HAVE responded to it as such in the past.

[Anaris]

Now, sure there's no foul when you send orders IC, and you maybe repost them to IRC. Sure, whatever. But actually using OOC means to supplant IC means

100% pure and simple cheating. It doesn't matter if we can't track it: it's still cheating. And, if by some means we happen to hear about it, we should respond to it as such. Heck, I think we HAVE responded to it as such in the past.

This is simply not true, at least historically.

You may have formed an opinion that this is how it should be—indeed, perhaps it even is how it should be. But I know for certain that Tom's policy on this, historically, has been: If you give an order OOC, no one cares. If you punish someone for not following it, you're in trouble.

Think about this, Vellos. Fundamentally, there's no difference between a player moving their character because of an order given OOC and because their friend told them OOC that "the plan" was to do it. Either way, it comes down to simply acting on OOC information. And, whether any of us like it or not, that is very clearly not forbidden.

[Tom]

And it's not forbidden because we simply don't know about it - we don't read all your emails, SMS and face-to-face conversations or any of the other 20 channels for OOG messaging.

[Vellos]

This is wrong.

So you're saying it would not be forbidden for a realm to do its orders via e-mail instead of IG messages? Have elections on SurvekyMonkey maybe?

[Anaris]

This is wrong.

So you're saying it would not be forbidden for a realm to do its orders via e-mail instead of IG messages? Have elections on SurvekyMonkey maybe?

If it were happening on a mass scale, that would be a clear violation of the Social Contract.

If, however, I order my friend, in person or on IRC, to move to the capital so we can start the rebellion, that's not something that's punishable.

[Phellan]

I was always under the impression OOC actions were against the rules - at least ethically. 

If you all move one way, without sending orders, and someone in your Realm notices. . . that would be seen as a very bad thing.

Plotting and such OOC - even discussing your orders or plans - happens all the time.   Heck, reminding people OOC to make the move is fine too.

But you always had to justify your IC actions with IC. . .things.   Even if it was all planned and organized OOC, failing to do it IC at least half-assed could be seen as a form of abuse or breaking the code of conduct.

Plot to overthrow the king ooc sure - but at least make sure you join the rebellion or send letters to each other plotting.    If it's ALL OOC that is against the rules - or at least intent - of the game and should not be encourage or allowed.  Proving it. . . is entirely a different matter.

[Vellos]

If it were happening on a mass scale, that would be a clear violation of the Social Contract.

If, however, I order my friend, in person or on IRC, to move to the capital so we can start the rebellion, that's not something that's punishable.

Want to go ahead and define "mass scale"?

Ordering for a rebellion is the worst example ever. All intrigue needs to occur in forms that could hypothetically be tortured out of you.

Seriously, this is in direct conflict with every discussion of this issue I've ever heard. You cannot substitute OOG communication for IG communication. No, we can't police it: but if we discover it, we have grounds to address it.

[Zakilevo]

Nah. OOC should replace IG. So much more convenient and you don't have to worry about that stupid SMA. And it is quicker too. You are not bound by IR if you do it through OOC. Hack why am I using IG communication!

[Miriam Ics]

All intrigue needs to occur in forms that could hypothetically be tortured out of you.

This is a good reason to have all OOC orders sent IC too. Although I am at IRC and many of us give orders OOC there, all of them are instantly followed by one IC.

[Anaris]

Want to go ahead and define "mass scale"?

Not especially. You know the general policy on specifically laying out details of things like this.

Anyway, I doubt there really is a bright line in this sort of thing. More of an "I'll know it when I see it."

In general, though, I'd say that one person giving orders to a small number of other people once or twice for convenience's sake is fine, while coordinating an entire realm over a long period that way is not fine. In between the two, there are areas of "pretty much OK," "pretty much not OK," and gray in-between-ness.

[Solari]

Intent matters. The reason that sending out orders via OOG mechanisms (it isn't a widespread phenomenon, btw) is discouraged is because it excludes that portion of players who aren't privy to it. BM is a game built on communication and inclusiveness. Exclusiveness, especially the kind against which there is no recourse, is harmful.

[Tom]

This is wrong.

So you're saying it would not be forbidden for a realm to do its orders via e-mail instead of IG messages? Have elections on SurvekyMonkey maybe?

*sigh*

There is a difference between "we can't run mass surveilance on the entire Internet, all phone networks world-wide and every private meeting on the entire planet" and "it's all fine".

Realistically, we can't prevent OOG communication. Heck, everyone who knows another BM player in real life has probably had one.

So we turn a blind eye to individual cases because that's the only realistic approach.

However, the FAQ clearly states that any official business must be conducted in-game. So if you ban someone for not following an order you sent by e-mail, the Titans or Magistrates will consider that order non-existent and reverse the ban, punish you, whatever. It doesn't exist for us.


So running your realm through e-mail is not ok. But sending your buddy an SMS saying "cool battle with XYZ, you there next turn?" is something we will a) never learn about and b) can't prevent anyways and thus c) do nothing about. Because, frankly. telling people they can't talk about the game outside of the game is just crazy.

[Wolfsong]

Well, the point I'm trying to make is this:

1. Multiple accounts = cheating, if you log into each one.
2. Multiple accounts = not cheating, if you have someone else log into each other account.

Both types of multiplaying are identical in every way but the way I've illustrated above. In example #2, your minions mindlessly follow orders and click buttons. There is absolutely no possibility of them ever not doing what you say because you don't have !@#$ty friends, they don't like the game, and have no reason to not follow your orders. They are not invested, so they have no reason to do anything contrary to what you say. Maybe you're even rewarding them OOCly, or on another game, for their obedience. They are human proxies.

Why are human proxies a legitimate tactic of play on BM, but virtual proxies are not?

An example:

1. Making 10 accounts, logging into each one and setting movement to a particular region despite having no orders to do so. Purposefully inciting a war with an ally to destroy the realm you're in.

2. Getting 10 friends to make accounts, and telling them via email to set movement to a particular region despite having no IC orders to do so. Purposefully inciting a war with an ally to destroy the realm you're in.